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Do incapacitations count as a soldier's kills?

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Len

Rep: 10.7


PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:18 pm Post subject: Vichy French. Reply with quote

Hello,

I have posted similar topics but in the incorrect Forums. A Mod with Vichy French versus Allies / Resistance or  Repubblica Sociale Italiana versus Partisans / Americans would be great  Very Happy



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dj

Rep: 135
votes: 8


PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: Vichy French. Reply with quote

Well the Vichy Francais did not have too many battle.  Off the top of my head, the biggest battle was in Syria (Damascus?) and was fought against British colonial forces.  I thought that there was also a coup d etat and the French Foreign Legion decided to break away from the Vichy and fought against each other also in Syria.

The rest of the battles were naval and and air sorties.  The Vichy did manage to battle cripple a Royal Navy cruiser that had to get towed all the way back to South Africa.  Other than that there was not very vigorous fighting.  Surprisingly there were a large number of French collaborators that volunteered to serve on the east front...under the recruitment slogan of fighting communism.


What will the Revolution Change? - Youth Brigade
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Bungarra

Rep: 126.2
votes: 5


PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:36 pm Post subject: Re: Vichy French. Reply with quote

This informtion came from the book "Australians at War" Greece, Crete, Syria by John Laffin

Foreign Legion
In May 1941 it was comfirmed that the enemy army (Vichy) included 4 battalions of the 6th Foreign Legion Regiment. The allegience of Legion regiments depended on the loyalty of their commanders. Other Legions fought for the Free French Army and their were instances when Legion troops fought each other.

The 6th regiment comprised only 3000 men out of a total of 35,000 but they were the enemys finest troops and were constantly moved to sectors where the hardest fighting raged. Under their French officers they fought skillfully & stubbornly. At Hill 1284 near Jezzine two companies of the 11/16th regiment resisted the Australian 2/31st battalionin spirited and deadly fighting. When the diggers finally captured the hill, they found just one stone fortress 21 graves and 15 dead Legionaires.

At Palmyra, the Legion garrison of 6 officers & 85 men held out for 12 days against repeated attacks by cavalry regiments & an infantry battalion of the British & Free Armies.

The AIF 21st brgade fought 7 Vichy battalions including 2 of the Legion at Damour. The Diggers were only victorious after stiff Legionnaire resistance.

Private Jim Gordon of the 2/31st Battalion who won the VC at Jezzine said at the end of the campaign. "We had kidded ourselves that the Legionaires, being mercenaries, wouldn't risk their lives. But they really believed in their Fight & die creed. It was a pity we had to fight them. They would have made good mates"

Battle Casualties of the 6th & 7th Division AIF in the Syrian Campaign were:
37 officers 379 OR killed, 1049 wounded. In addition 3150 men passed through the 2 Aust Field Ambulances including 350 with malaria.

The Vichy French stated their losses at:
521 killed, 1037 missing, 1079 wounded and 3004 prisoners. At the end the Vichy Army strength was 25,000 with estimates of 9000 who deserted.


You know if you don't live it.... You can't give it.
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dj

Rep: 135
votes: 8


PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 9:55 pm Post subject: Re: Vichy French. Reply with quote

The French Foreign Legion gets a lot of respect.  Truly a fanatical fighting force that lives up to that notorious fight to the death reputation.  

Similarly the British High Command seemed to have a track record of using their Commonwealth forces as cannon-fodder.  Who had to fight as sacrificial lamb in some of the most hostile dangerous battles in WW2?  It always seemed to be the Australians that bore the brunt of the sacrifice in Crete, the Middle East and North Africa.  Or the Canadians in Normandy and Belgium that saw huge casualty rates against the elite German SS formations.


What will the Revolution Change? - Youth Brigade
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Tippi-Simo

Rep: 53.1
votes: 5


PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:49 pm Post subject: Re: Vichy French. Reply with quote

Petain was a real French, not that chicken butt communist Gaulle.


"Du talar dalig svenska, men du är bra i sängen"
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Bungarra

Rep: 126.2
votes: 5


PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:40 am Post subject: Re: Vichy French. Reply with quote

Really Tippo it all boils down to:

Are you a patriot

OR

Are you a puppet

I too do not like De Gaul he reminds me so much of McArthur


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ronson

Rep: 36.7
votes: 5


PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: Vichy French. Reply with quote

dj wrote (View Post):

Similarly the British High Command seemed to have a track record of using their Commonwealth forces as cannon-fodder.  Who had to fight as sacrificial lamb in some of the most hostile dangerous battles in WW2?  It always seemed to be the Australians that bore the brunt of the sacrifice in Crete, the Middle East and North Africa.  Or the Canadians in Normandy and Belgium that saw huge casualty rates against the elite German SS formations.


This is a popular misconception, bordering on an urban myth. Reliable casualty figures are available in many places for the British commonwealth forces, for example :-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#Human_losses_by_country
 
There are many reasons why this misconception exists, one reason why it appeared that the forces from the Dominions took an unfair share of the fighting stems from a  pre-war decision that all Dominion forces would be largly infantry, most taking the form of militia units. During an emergency these would be called upon and the support troops would come from the regular British army (Artiillery, Armour as well as second line services). Plus Naval and Air assets.
Remember at the time (1930's) the dominions were far behind the British Isles in terms of industrialistion, so this makes sense, as the UK could provide the heavy armaments fairly easily, while the manpower would come from the dominions.

Therefore the rifle companies, which take most of the battle casualties, would be disproportionally made up of dominion troops, especially during the early part of the war.

It is true that the ANZAC and Canadians were generally fitter men than the British, again this is reflected in any comparison between Rural and Urban soldiers, because of this they tended to be picked for the more demanding missions.

Finally Crete, this did make me smile:) , the GOC during the battle of Crete was actually Freyburg a New Zealander, so maybe this is why the Aussies got such a raw deal ! lol.

Joking aside, the garrison on Crete was split between NZ, Australian, British and Greek ground forces, most of which were severely limited in terms of mobility and almost unsupplied, having just returned from Greece, however they fought well alongside each other and almost pulled it off and held on to the island. When they were defeated Cunninghams fleet paid a high price in both ships and men to rescue as many troops irrespective of nationality.

Don't take this as a defence of the British General Staff, they were guilty of some disasterous decisions during WW2, but they didn't discriminate against the Dominion forces, they were just as unthinking towards the UK troops. e.g 18th Division at Singapore.

Cheers
Ronson


GR member Ronson1  ac 4247033
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Len

Rep: 10.7


PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: Vichy French. Reply with quote

It would be a real bonus to open up CC5 with new units and maps. The German Vs Allies mods are fun but it needs something new the La Batalla del Ebro and Afrika 40  mods are great examples.
Concerning Vichy I would recommend this book: England's Last War Against France Fighting Vichy 1940-42 by Colin Smith.
Syria and Madagascar were the main areas of engagement.

I am not a Mod maker but I thought it would be interesting to feature
some Vichy or Italian RSI forces.



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Post new topicReply to topic printer-friendly view Close Combat Series Forum Index -> Close Combat 5: Invasion Normandy


 
   
 


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