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Should light mortars be direct fire only?
No, "don't fix what's not broken."
41%
 41%  [ 5 ]
Yes, they weren't supposed to fire indirect.
16%
 16%  [ 2 ]
Only the hand-held 2 inch mortar.
41%
 41%  [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 12

7A_Woulf

Rep: 22.1
votes: 2


PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:09 pm Post subject: Light mortars in TLD Reply with quote

Been thinking, and reading some of the forums here, and my question is; -Should light mortars be direct or indirect fire?

Option 1) "Don't fix what's not broken!" -They are too powerful as all mortars in TLD, but leave them as they are.

Option 2) Direct fire only. They didn't have any forward observers and they wasn't supposed to been used as indirect support.

Option 3) US 60mm and German 5cm had a bipod mounting, allowing them to fire more accurate, allowing them the option of indirect fire. But the Commonwealth 2 inch mortar were hand-held, only allowing it to direct fire.

Votes and comments peoples, it's for your pleasure (and my own sick will to get the game both fun and historical correct...) I'm working on a mod.  Cool


"When the tough gets going, I run to live to run another day..."

"Is this trip really necessary?"
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:34 pm Post subject: Re: Light mortars in TLD Reply with quote

Indirect for sure.
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davidssfx

Rep: 16.8
votes: 8


PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:39 pm Post subject: Re: Light mortars in TLD Reply with quote

I think they should stay as is ... all mortars that is.

They do a lot of damage when infantry are running ... not so much when crawling (unless direct hit), and they should be able to knock out an AT gun.

Someone I was talking to (danzen maybe) ... said the only problem they had, was mortars are too powerful against tanks. I think he, and the guys he's battling with, made a small mod to add armor to the top of tanks to help correct this. I can't comment on this though, since I haven't noticed the problem yet.

I think all aspects of TLD mortars are perfect ... no touchy  Smile


Last edited by davidssfx on Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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papa_whisky

Rep: 42.2
votes: 4


PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:22 am Post subject: Re: Light mortars in TLD Reply with quote

The 2 inch mortar was primarily a platoon weapon. Its primarily used for laying smoke during the day and illumination at night. Personally I would like to see a 2 inch in every platoon commanders team for Commonwealth, with less HE rounds. I have never been able to find a typical load for ammunition but i would have thought about 10 most as as smoke and illumination. According the the workbook the max range is 800m with 18 rnds of HE which is too far it should be more like 450 with maybe 5 rounds of HE.

The only common exceptions to being a platoon weapon that I can think of is when mounted on a Universal Carrier, which in that case was used more as a support weapon, or with a 6pdr for laying smoke when moving the gun.

I think it should be kept as indirect weapon as that is how it was used, although it was reported as being effective in urban environment in a direct role. The 2 inch had spring loaded firing pin so it could be fired rather like a rifle if you really had to.
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mooxe

Rep: 169.6
votes: 23


PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:12 am Post subject: Re: Light mortars in TLD Reply with quote

Direct Fire - This could really change some peoples tactics. I have had games where people used thier 60mm for direct fire. It was extremely effective in how it supressed my men.

A two man 60mm team would be a good compromise.
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7A_Woulf

Rep: 22.1
votes: 2


PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:34 am Post subject: Re: Light mortars in TLD Reply with quote

Crap! I've turned "Warrant officer", my NCO-carrier is over...  Crying or Very sad
(My first dream as a kid was to become a regular Sergeant, I was mighty disappointed when I realised that I was a diabetic and that the Swedish army only had conscript Sergeants.  Wink )

Anyway...

@ papa-whiskey:  the 2 inch was a platoon weaponl. The Paras used it solely for smoke, you can find him in Soldier.txt, #87, but by some strange reason he has a Lee Enfield and a German 5cm mortar...  Rolling Eyes

This links are a bitter better:
http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/British/Airborne/british_parachute_battalion%201942%20to%201943.htm
http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/Weapons/Mortarsandguns/Mortars%20&%20Infantry%20Guns.htm
 
As you can see there, every mortar-man carried six rounds of ammo, giving the teams somewhere between 12 and 18 rounds, and as you says; -The range should be about 450 meters.

@ mooxe: Right now I've got five men strong 60mm teams, but that may decrease before I'm done, two men are 'only' ammo-grunts...  Confused

And finally, I'll definitely do something about the killing-power of the mortars, especially since I've grouped medium mortars in in two tubes sections! I've been reading on the forums, and played a few games, and there isn't much to say; -They are too powerful. A few rounds and the nasty Gerry AT-gun is history.

Now I'm of for a few nights of work, but it will be fun to see what you guys thinks. Cya  Cool


"When the tough gets going, I run to live to run another day..."

"Is this trip really necessary?"
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papa_whisky

Rep: 42.2
votes: 4


PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:11 am Post subject: Re: Light mortars in TLD Reply with quote

For the paras it was a section weapon which as the link suggests was solely for smoke. The load out suggests that the mortar man would carry six rounds, other rounds might be shared by the rest of the section but which probably at most would mean an extra 9 rounds available.

For infantry it was a platoon weapon, I model this as being a secondary weapon for one member of the platoon cmd team. I give him five smoke and five HE, but reduce the weight of his standard load to compensate for probably at least 5 rounds that would be carried by other members of the team. If you don't do this he will struggle to keep up.
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ronson

Rep: 36.7
votes: 5


PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: Light mortars in TLD Reply with quote

The 2" mortar was still in use in the 70's in the British Army, as I recall it was used mainly for smoke, there were no sights like on the 81mm, it was aimed by lining up a white line painted along the tube with the intended target. All members of the platoon were instructed on how to use it. Best shot won the prize of carrying it around Rolling Eyes

As you can see from the firing method it was a pretty much hit and miss sort of affair, some blokes were very good at it and others not so. I guess a bit like playing darts!

Ammo tended to be spread out among the platoon, same as the GPMG belts were, with everyone carrying one bomb, these would be given to the team when it was time to fire. Sounds a bit odd to distribite it this way I know but remember in the Infantry you spend far more time walking around than you ever do fighting. So you would end up with around 30 bombs at the start of the day, mostly smoke, but with some HE. It could also be used with Illumination rounds too, purely white just to see with or coloured stars for signals.

I have also heard of the 'firing from the hip' stories, although I never saw it done...probably the sort of thing the nut-cases in the Paras would get up to! Laughing

Though not directly WW2 usage I hope this is some help to you.

Cheers
Ronson


GR member Ronson1  ac 4247033
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stovepipe

Rep: 0.1


PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:06 pm Post subject: Re: Light mortars in TLD Reply with quote

Slightly off topic but relevant.
See youtube footage (link below) of British forces in Afghanistan, 2006. From 01:50 you can clearly see the 2"/51mm mortar in action and I dont think those are smoke/lumi rounds!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GEaUdrAoig

My 2 cents are leave light mortars as is.

Stove
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davidssfx

Rep: 16.8
votes: 8


PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: Light mortars in TLD Reply with quote

Try the TLD Grand Campaign as the U.S. landing at the Omaha beaches, and then see if you think the mortars need to be less powerful.
I had a 60mm and 81mm firing together at an AT gun placed on the ridge at Dog Green. The near misses from the 81mm took out a few guys, but one or two survived and the AT gun remained active ... that after using almost all the mortars ammo.
And a 88mm in a bunker, survived a naval barrage (that is OK though)
A 60mm at Pointe Du Hoc spent all their ammo with next to no damage to defenders (even the ones not in bunkers) ... mostly because they were not running around, but in stationary defensive positions.

Once in a while you get a direct hit, but not that often.

Once an AT gun is spotted ... mortars, with reasonable close range and LOS should be able to eventually knock it out. Why should AT guns be protected against mortar fire? ... an AT gun has only some frontal armor protection, but the sides, rear, and top are all open to take damage from mortar explosions.

I always thought the mortars in CC3 were virtually useless ... like em better in TLD. Just an opinion though.
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mooxe

Rep: 169.6
votes: 23


PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:29 pm Post subject: Re: Light mortars in TLD Reply with quote

davidssfx wrote (View Post):
Why should AT guns be protected against mortar fire?


Basically because they are too powerful vs ATGs, most people seem to be in agreement of this. Sure, they dont have top armour, but in this game the mortars make ATGs useless. What do you want? A less than half-way historically accurate battle simulator, or great gameplay. You can't have both in CC.

Theres a few compromises for each case...

- Decrease accuracy or mortars
- Decrease mortar ammo
- Decrease amount mortar teams
- Increase reload/flight time
- Decrease mortar teams characteristics
- Increase ATG Armour
- Increase ability of ATG to destroy targets on 1st shot
- Increase ATG teams characteristics
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schrecken

Rep: 195
votes: 15


PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:08 pm Post subject: Re: Light mortars in TLD Reply with quote

Quote:
Basically because they are too powerful vs ATGs,


David obviously disagrees with you and I lean towards his side of the equation.... though sometimes.....
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davidssfx

Rep: 16.8
votes: 8


PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:11 pm Post subject: Re: Light mortars in TLD Reply with quote

mooxe wrote (View Post):
davidssfx wrote (View Post):
Why should AT guns be protected against mortar fire?


Basically because they are too powerful vs ATGs, most people seem to be in agreement of this. Sure, they dont have top armour, but in this game the mortars make ATGs useless. What do you want? A less than half-way historically accurate battle simulator, or great gameplay. You can't have both in CC.

Theres a few compromises for each case...

- Decrease accuracy or mortars
- Decrease mortar ammo
- Decrease amount mortar teams
- Increase reload/flight time
- Decrease mortar teams characteristics
- Increase ATG Armour
- Increase ability of ATG to destroy targets on 1st shot
- Increase ATG teams characteristics




I'm quite new to the tech side of CC ... and since some people think they are too powerful vs ATGs ... (and after reading your suggestions) I'll suggest a couple of options that make sense to me, and would be a middle ground between the two sides of this debate:

1) Decrease accuracy or mortars
2) or, decrease the power of mortars against ATGs ... but make ATGs crews take cover while under mortar fire and not be able to fire their main gun until mortar barrage stops. Not sure if this is possible ... but I like this option best.
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7A_Woulf

Rep: 22.1
votes: 2


PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:25 am Post subject: Re: Light mortars in TLD Reply with quote

Mea culpa, papa_whiskey  Embarassed

It's hard to be bright at 2 am, even if you've read the page fifty times the last month...

Thanks for your opinions, it's an interesting discussion we got here, I can see to where it leans.  Wink

But I'm almost forced to do something about the killing-power of medium and heavy mortars since I've grouped them in sections of two tubes, as I personally prefer and as it was like that they were used. Regarding realism contra playability, I must say that I prefer to go for realism, with minor changes and sidesteps for the later (For example; I've created 'humongous' naval spotters for the allies, thought I'd do the same for the Gerry's Nebelwerfers too, but unfortunately there were no 'Nebels' in Normandy during the timespan of TLD...  Sad  )

As you all know I'm rather fresh at modding, and when I look at the weapons it feels like their hit chances are a bit high. Is there some equation that I've missed and the to hit chance is just a base value?

ronson wrote (View Post):

I have also heard of the 'firing from the hip' stories, although I never saw it done...probably the sort of thing the nut-cases in the Paras would get up to! Laughing


ronson, don't back-talk the paras! They are just not like the other kids...  Wink

But the spread of ammo among soldiers is a function I miss in CC, the poor gunners have to carry both their personal weapon, their mortar/MG and all the ammo for them!! -All it would take are a few more tabs in the soldier file, the type of weapon they have ammo for and tabs for the type of ammo they carries for it, just like their personal weapons.


"When the tough gets going, I run to live to run another day..."

"Is this trip really necessary?"
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papa_whisky

Rep: 42.2
votes: 4


PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:43 am Post subject: Re: Light mortars in TLD Reply with quote

I am still of the opinion that Lt mortars should be modelled such that the are effective in suppression but limited capability of destroying targets. As they are often set they are one of the most effective weapons due to their mobility and often large numbers of rounds. In all the CC games I have played and most of the mods its a 'must have team', I love them but they are often too good. However, modern light mortars are becoming increasingly effective on the battle field.

3 inch, 80/81/82mm are employed to neutralise targets  if you look at FM 100-61 an 82mm is estimated to requires 180 rounds to destroy a towed artillery battery in the open, which would approximate to about 60 rounds for a single gun to neutralise it.
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Kojusoki

Rep: 22.7


PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:02 am Post subject: Re: Light mortars in TLD Reply with quote

In my opinion, we should get rid COMPLETLY of medium/hvy mortars in such small maps. In CC we should use only light mortars (but with smoke) which are mobile enough to be deployed while being attacked or during attack. There is no way, medium mortars were brought along with infantry to the very first line (we sometimes fight with our med mortar teams or use them to capture VLs - i know its rare, but it happens).

So my suggestion:
-remove med/hvy mortars
-add smoke for light mortars
-add many more mortar barrages  - this is realistic. Mortars were often gropued and called when needed. But med mortars werent on the first line, except some special cases (during defense maybe)


Last edited by Kojusoki on Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ronson

Rep: 36.7
votes: 5


PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: Light mortars in TLD Reply with quote

Thats a very good idea Kojusoki.....

Also it would end the constant wrangling over guns, haltracks, and even in some mods tanks which are all damaged or destroyed by infantry mortars.

Maybe some method could be found not only to increase the amount of barrage fire from 'off board' mortars but of also firing a decent smokescreen. IIRC in the Omaha mod there are observers who can provide a long range smokescreen, possibly something along these lines might be adpted?. I know this would use a team slot, however slots would be freed up by removal of the med/heavy mortars.

I think this is ceratinly a radical idea and probably needs to be refined by discussion, but my first reaction to it was favourable. I can certainly see situations or reasons why mortars would maybe be part of a BG. However I think this is a great starting point for a discussion that just might bring about a real step in the development of this great game.

Cheers
Ronson

PS if theres an idea of the year award, I'll nominate Kojusoki:)


GR member Ronson1  ac 4247033
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papa_whisky

Rep: 42.2
votes: 4


PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: Light mortars in TLD Reply with quote

Certainly agree with medium and heavy mortars being off board, and increasing the amount off off board barrages, of which smoke should be one of the types available.
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davidssfx

Rep: 16.8
votes: 8


PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: Light mortars in TLD Reply with quote

I like Kojusoki's idea too ... but with Ronson's included.
here's my 2 cents: (2nd edit)

1) Medium and Heavy Mortars off map, but directed by a Forward Observer Team (2man).
This would simulate grouped mortars, placed further away from direct action (as mentioned) ... but also simulate the placement of fire by an on ground unit calling the shots ... (one man with binoculars and the other on radio).

2) Mortar Forward Observer Teams would be indirect fire, but have only one HE barrage and one (or two) smoke barrages available. Both have a fixed duration, similar to the way Naval/Mortar barrages work now. This may help balance the ATG vs. Mortar problem ... since these Mortars would just fire their ammo load once, and not be able to continue harassing/knocking out other ATG's (like Mortars do now). Still would be able to take one out though.
Unit survivability also becomes a factor when using a Mortar Forward Observer Team, because once they fire the barrages ... they need to be kept alive for future BG barrages.
Both HE and Smoke options are available. Still uses the same "in game" slots used by Medium and Heavy Mortars.

3) Light Mortars have Smoke option

4) Naval Barrage and Air Strikes still used as is ... since Naval Barrage may not have been called in by a Forward Observer, and airplanes can see target from above (also no need for Forward Observer).
No Mortar Barrages of this type.
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Kojusoki

Rep: 22.7


PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: Light mortars in TLD Reply with quote

Thank you guys, and Ronson for nomination Wink
We discussed it a lot with Will (I think he is not on the forum) and here are our thoughts:

-Wacht am Rhein was an Artillery game. Allied main job was to immob Panthers by artillery, while German task was to avoid artillery. We need to avoid similar situation here. But i think Mortal Barrage is not so effective so it can be more or less "safe" to implement
-quantity of the support depends how many maps is avaible, how many BGs are involed and how many turns per day we have
-we discussed “forward observers” and sniper teams as those who call mortars or planes. Question is – shall it be direct or indirect “fire”. To place mortar or air support properly, I think the spotter must have a clear sight. He cannot place it anywhere on the map. But I can be wrong
My opinion is that once we have 75% of BGs supported each turn with mortar barrage it should be OK. It will knock out up to one AT gun (usually) so finally Infantry guns will be usefull. I think it will make game completely different. Also light mortars will be in use again (with smoke). They are accurate, and they will give a nice smoke cover.
My other 2 cents are that even when we leave medium mortars, or play only with light ones, we should SOMEHOW simulate communication/line of sight problems. I mean that to place an accurate mortar fire, the mortar team must have a good information: too far, too close, more to the left etc. It was II WW and as far as I know, only command units had radios. This means, that one of the command units had to have the clear LOS – we cannot “check” it in CC. So my suggestion was to make mortar fire accurate until lets say 150m – distance that average  command unit had chance to see a target  (again it depends on mod – in France, with all those Bocage and hedgerows view was fairly limited, while on the desert it can be even 400m). More then 150m it was more like: “Guys, we had targets somewhere close to the church – we don’t see them, but they are there! [mortar team]Roger that, firing! [command] Well, we cant see it, but I think fire more to the north, I don’t see where it explodes exactly, but….
So we can set in .txt file long range (which is inaccurate) fairly close, so player can deicide – “ok I can place effective fire lets say until 150m but if that gun is a real pain, I can try to hit it with the 15th shell at the distance of 220m…” (as no one can see the gun or even the place – we just expect the gun CAN be here).
We made it with shrecks and it works really good. Shrecks are powerfull until 130m, can fire up to 250, but we usually wait until target is within medium range. And it works really nice – shrecks are no longer kings of the field

Question about air support: how wa sthat during WWII? There were no laser guided missiles/bombs, there were no good communication. Was it really possible to call CAS (close air support) during these days? What i want to say is that we used to call this air supportas  a "hand of God" - its really accurate (really!) and can destoy even a Tiger (yes i killed a tiger once).
Maybe it will be worth to use the "CAS slot" for the second moratr barrage? And also get rid of naval support which also i think wasnt udes in tactical terms (more as a preparation for the assult)
Once we have 3 slots avaible for mortar barrage (i think it is moddable) it will be possible to have 3 "shots" for one particular, important, battle and none for others. I find it realistic

There is one more thing againts using mortars as "units" - the time needed for "aiming". Now, I have my two mortars mapped at key "1" so once I see enemy running, I hit 1, then "b" and fire. It takes 2-3 seconds. No way in reality it could work. And CC engine doesnt have an option to set the "aiming" time.
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