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mooxe

Rep: 221.1
votes: 25


PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:56 am Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

platoon_michael wrote (View Post):
1)The problem lies in the fact that those who do complain were here back in the Hey day of CC.
They want to see that Hey day again with lots of people playing online and great mods once again produced.


1) Its not a problem. I dont care about the hey days. I don't like the fact that these rereleases are so off the cuff, seat of your pants push it out the door projects. 10 years after the last classic version was released we still have the same old game with a ton of strategic add-ons that are half tested and bugged all to hell. The decision makers are holding the game back from a higher potential by inserting these bugged features and not focusing on the tactical phase. There is very little testing, no "checks and balances". There is very few people actually doing the work to make the game better. There is just half baked ideas hacked into the game and sold as, "hey atleast you are getting a "new" game after all these years!" The word atleast means we are compromising.

New maps and new strategic maps do not make a new Close Combat. New tactical features, less bugs, updated graphics (or atleast stop shortcutting on the "3d" buildings and vehicles) and a consolodation of all the great features of all Close Combat versions make a new Close Combat. With the CC2 rerelease we will once again see a slew of new strategic features, more maps that are probably made from cut and paste sections of a 1000 previous maps but nothing new to the actual Close Combat.

Summary - 10 years later we are still at square one with just as many bugs. Thats whats annoying me, and many others.


Join Discord for technical support and online games.
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schrecken

Rep: 195
votes: 15


PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:11 am Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

Night battle, teams that are short members and equipment, elimination of the crawl of death,  are a few of things that immediately come to mind as features added to tactical battles.... all for the good I think.
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squadleader_id

Rep: 53.2
votes: 7


PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:26 am Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

schrecken wrote (View Post):
...elimination of the crawl of death,


Yep...replaced with the lovely Girlie Soldiers(TM) for the rereleases? Smile
I'm glad that at least with the latest CCTLD patch this "AI enhancement feature" has finally been fixed properly and actually works quite well now  Very Happy
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schrecken

Rep: 195
votes: 15


PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:36 am Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

so stop whinging then   :)


or do you just like whinging for the sake of it?
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squadleader_id

Rep: 53.2
votes: 7


PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:37 am Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

schrecken wrote (View Post):
so stop whinging then   :)


or do you just like whinging for the sake of it?


Laughing  Wink
BTW, will there ever be a GS(TM) fix for CCWAR (also CoI and CCMT)?
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:39 am Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

mooxe wrote (View Post):
platoon_michael wrote (View Post):
1)The problem lies in the fact that those who do complain were here back in the Hey day of CC.
They want to see that Hey day again with lots of people playing online and great mods once again produced.


1) Its not a problem. I dont care about the hey days. I don't like the fact that these rereleases are so off the cuff, seat of your pants push it out the door projects. 10 years after the last classic version was released we still have the same old game with a ton of strategic add-ons that are half tested and bugged all to hell. The decision makers are holding the game back from a higher potential by inserting these bugged features and not focusing on the tactical phase. There is very little testing, no "checks and balances". There is very few people actually doing the work to make the game better. There is just half baked ideas hacked into the game and sold as, "hey atleast you are getting a "new" game after all these years!" The word atleast means we are compromising.

New maps and new strategic maps do not make a new Close Combat. New tactical features, less bugs, updated graphics (or atleast stop shortcutting on the "3d" buildings and vehicles) and a consolodation of all the great features of all Close Combat versions make a new Close Combat. With the CC2 rerelease we will once again see a slew of new strategic features, more maps that are probably made from cut and paste sections of a 1000 previous maps but nothing new to the actual Close Combat.

Summary - 10 years later we are still at square one with just as many bugs. Thats whats annoying me, and many others.


I agree with this assessment completely.

The game is graphics AND data intensive, and cannot rid itself of every anomolie.

But, the investment dollars dried up.

I think I could declare CCMT officially DEAD. I might be the only person on the planet playing the game at all.  Question
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southern_land

Rep: 155.2
votes: 14


PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:57 am Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

platoon_michael wrote (View Post):
In a nut shell as I see it............

2) The Mods that were first released for CCIV(VetBoB,TrueGreen) and CCV (GJS) were considered MUST have Mods.
these were the mothers of all Mods because they were the first of their kind.

3)Since then many Mods have been release but none have seem to taken the roll of MUST HAVE Mods.

.


Ok in my new vein of positivity...  if these are the mods to have, everything is there, maps, data, graphics ... go for it  get permission from the creators if possible and take them through to the new model game.   Seriously, if they are what you want to play and you think they'd be popular with those players that are left mod them... why not?
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Sapa

Rep: 76.3
votes: 8


PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:58 am Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

platoon_michael wrote (View Post):
In a nut shell as I see it............

1)The problem lies in the fact that those who do complain were here back in the Hey day of CC.
They want to see that Hey day again with lots of people playing online and great mods once again produced.

2) The Mods that were first released for CCIV(VetBoB,TrueGreen) and CCV (GJS) were considered MUST have Mods.
these were the mothers of all Mods because they were the first of their kind.

3)Since then many Mods have been release but none have seem to taken the roll of MUST HAVE Mods.

4)Online gameplay has died as has an appropriate ONE SITE for all to congregate.


5)We we cheated by Atomic with a shitty CCV and never got a proper patch for it,instead we were told BUY THIS NEW GAME


6)The re-releases despite having many UPGRADES over its previous version still has many bugs some of which has had to be forced down the throat of those who created it to be considered a bug and HAS NOT been able to duplicate the HEY DAY we all so much crave.


The first real CCV mod made was The Meuse Crossing by Luer and Moloch, same guys made the first real mod for CCIV, The Winter War, just a note ;)

/Mats
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Tejszd

Rep: 133.6
votes: 19


PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:18 am Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

Sapa is correct, Luer and Moloch were the makers of the 1st mods of the CC games with a strat map.

Though, it must be acknowledged that while the strat maps look different for those mods they really were the same layout as the original game.
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schrecken

Rep: 195
votes: 15


PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:15 am Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

In that context then.... GJS was the first real mod of the Strat. map series of game... a mighty fine effort too.


Although, in my view, if you change so much as one weapons data you have created a real mod.
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CSO_Linebacker

Rep: 5.9
votes: 1


PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:33 am Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

Quote:

Its not a problem. I dont care about the hey days. I don't like the fact that these rereleases are so off the cuff, seat of your pants push it out the door projects. 10 years after the last classic version was released we still have the same old game with a ton of strategic add-ons that are half tested and bugged all to hell. The decision makers are holding the game back from a higher potential by inserting these bugged features and not focusing on the tactical phase. There is very little testing, no "checks and balances". There is very few people actually doing the work to make the game better. There is just half baked ideas hacked into the game and sold as, "hey atleast you are getting a "new" game after all these years!" The word atleast means we are compromising.


When reading statements like this for the past 2 years, it's a wonder how any of the dedicated volunteers have any motivation left at all.  But they do.  Yes, the team is small, but that is only because there has turned out to be very few trustworthy people willing to work for free in the community, so that small team of volunteers continues to give their time and talents for free in an effort to complete the contract between the old Simtek and Destineer, in the hopes that they will get out from underneath the license agreement with enough resources to build something completely new from the ground up. Why? For all of you guys...the same people that ridicule and attack them for things they have no control over.  The fact is, the game can't move forward until the contract is complete, plain and simple.

"Half Baked Ideas Hacked Into The Game"--that would actually be a fitting description of the original code.  Multiple programmers working at different times with different styles and ideas just throwing crap together.  I wouldn't call the 3-4 months of full time coding that went into WAR, the 2-3 months of full time coding that went into TLD, and the 4-6 months of coding that have went into the CC2 re-release...so far...a hack job.  Sifting through, cleaning up and adding to the mess that was the CC code is time consuming.  Some ideas have been mulled over for weeks to try and come up with something that will work and be easy for modders to work with.  You guys may not like them, but 'half-baked hacks' is far from the phrase that I would use to describe them.

So give them a break...if the people actually putting the time in had any input into how things go, I'm sure things would be different.  They're just doing the best the can...the grunts slogging away at the front lines under orders of the men in the rear


'If it does not have a gun, it cannot be fun'
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Sapa

Rep: 76.3
votes: 8


PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:37 am Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

Luer and Moloch made their mod before the strat tool was created ;)

i think there has been questions about tools before?  Wink
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Therion

Rep: 27.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:36 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

Stwa wrote (View Post):
The game is graphics AND data intensive, and cannot rid itself of every anomolie.

But, the investment dollars dried up.

Graphics and data is easy to fix and it doesn't require paying anyone. The main financial problem are engine updates and removing the engine bugs.

Stwa wrote (View Post):
I think I could declare CCMT officially DEAD. I might be the only person on the planet playing the game at all.  Question

There are some CCMT players in Poland. I played H2H with one, it was pretty fun. We planned playing a 3x3 battle with the others but then I had to move to Linux and I can't play CC any more.


Wonderland - my mod for Armored Brigade

Killing for peace is like fucking for orgasm.
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CSO_Linebacker

Rep: 5.9
votes: 1


PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:53 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

[quote=]
Graphics and data is easy to fix and it doesn't require paying anyone. The main financial problem are engine updates and removing the engine bugs.
[/quote]

That is hilarious.  I never thought about how easy it is, when I put almost 1000 hours into WAR graphics.  And data being easy...that's always how mods have ended up like crap.  No effort put into the data.


'If it does not have a gun, it cannot be fun'
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Dundradal

Rep: 27.9
votes: 4


PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

[quote="Therion";p="50200"]
Stwa wrote (View Post):

Graphics and data is easy to fix and it doesn't require paying anyone. The main financial problem are engine updates and removing the engine bugs.


Something like that you need to campaign the developer for. While at times Matrix drives me up the wall, they also have a gaming niche I absolutely love. If the company receives enough emails, phone calls, etc from PAYING customers (that's key here...and maybe a reason some here feel that the developer has told them to piss off...would you want to support a community that on the one hand is supporting your work but on the other distributing the old product for free? (Which you can still find and purchase online if you look) I can understand why at times the developer might not want to update the game if they feel that the community will just stick it to them. Now this might not be the case, I'm just posing an example.

Also, haven't any of the older community members formed relationships with the developers? Not to beat a dead horse here, but in the WC community we've embraced former Origin employees on the forums and many of us are personal friends with former and potential future developers on the franchise. Having connections like this will do great things for you (For us in WC it's given us access to all kinds of things we would have never of had before...and it reached a climax when WC News was given permission to post the entire WC Secret Ops game back...after 10 years of being told not to post Episodes 2-7)

I'm not going to judge this site for choosing to host illegal copies, but at the same time you can't get made at the developer for giving you the cold shoulder. I would do the same if I thought someone was demanding something from me while at the same time stealing...


"To you, we are deeply grateful, and release what little hold we might, as Durandal, have had on your soul.
Go."
- Final Terminal Message, Marathon Infinity
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AT_Stalky

Rep: 27.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

And hi to you to.

Dundradal wrote (View Post):
...would you want to support a community that on the one hand is supporting your work but on the other distributing the old product for free?


On what base are you saying this site is distributing pirate copies?? If you refer to the (short) time CC2 was hosted here, it was regarded as abandon ware and it soon was made clear it was not, it was removed.


Dundradal wrote (View Post):
I can understand why at times the developer might not want to update the game if they feel that the community will just stick it to them. Now this might not be the case, I'm just posing an example.


Are you suggesting that the developer make poor games on purpose, with poor data and buggy as hell just because some pirate there product, and this is the reason why they don’t fix and update CCMT, WaR and TLD?



Dundradal wrote (View Post):
Also, haven't any of the older community members formed relationships with the developers?


Well, the community use to go hand in hand with the current developer, the developer run a cc site named CSO since 1997.
And one sunny day some years back, they got the rights to “develop” CC, and all was fine to begin with, until they realised COI.
Then the CSO-community (mostly CC3-ers) started to bring forward complains about that product, and the developer systematically iron fisted em and anyone who dared to suggest that there product had flaws (look at this thread, page 1, post 4 and 9, they are illustrative of what I mean).
The CSO site is today all but dead, non except the developer dares post there and non have done so for years…
I supose thats what they (really) mean with when they talk about "positive"?




Dundradal wrote (View Post):
I'm not going to judge this site for choosing to host illegal copies,


Ok Judge, …. Illegal … copies …


Dundradal wrote (View Post):
I would do the same if I thought someone was demanding something from me while at the same time stealing...


Stealing… a community made up by thieves…. Isnt that nice.. Wellcome "mate".. My mother keeps warning me about the bad company... Dont whant to be mixed in with em do we,  

 

Any more deep insight about this community you whant to share with us?
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Sapa

Rep: 76.3
votes: 8


PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:36 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

schrecken wrote (View Post):
In that context then.... GJS was the first real mod of the Strat. map series of game... a mighty fine effort too.


Although, in my view, if you change so much as one weapons data you have created a real mod.


I thought Okinawa was the first with a new stratmap?
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Dundradal

Rep: 27.9
votes: 4


PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):
And hi to you to.


Hello.



Quote:
On what base are you saying this site is distributing pirate copies?? If you refer to the (short) time CC2 was hosted here, it was regarded as abandon ware and it soon was made clear it was not, it was removed.


Bottom of this page has a link to CC torrents on Piratebay.


Quote:
Are you suggesting that the developer make poor games on purpose, with poor data and buggy as hell just because some pirate there product, and this is the reason why they don’t fix and update CCMT, WaR and TLD?


No, I'm not saying that at all. I said that could be one of many reasons and said it was only an example. I have no clue why they aren't doing patches, but I'll be sure to make my voice heard over at Matrix about the issue. I paid for a product and I expect support.

Quote:
Well, the community use to go hand in hand with the current developer, the developer run a cc site named CSO since 1997.
And one sunny day some years back, they got the rights to “develop” CC, and all was fine to begin with, until they realised COI.
Then the CSO-community (mostly CC3-ers) started to bring forward complains about that product, and the developer systematically iron fisted em and anyone who dared to suggest that there product had flaws (look at this thread, page 1, post 4 and 9, they are illustrative of what I mean).
The CSO site is today all but dead, non except the developer dares post there and non have done so for years…
I supose thats what they (really) mean with when they talk about "positive"?


Information I was not aware of...that's certainly unfortunate. I took some time and read some of the posts over there and do see what you are saying. Instead of being supportive, the developers mock users lack of knowledge at times. It was really sad to see and read. Although I did see glimmers of hope in there as well...

By positive, I meant relations that are constructive, looking at CSO, it appears that the admins don't know how to ignore harsh criticism and focus on what is good and what they need to improve. Instead, I see both positive and negative comments over there. I think they just need to be told some old advice, "Don't take it personally, but take it seriously" when it comes to people's thoughts.


Quote:
Ok Judge, …. Illegal … copies …


See now why are you trying to incite me here? I was expressing what I thought...I see a link that goes to Piratesbay...did I make a mistake? If so please tell me.


Quote:
Stealing… a community made up by thieves…. Isnt that nice.. Wellcome "mate".. My mother keeps warning me about the bad company... Dont whant to be mixed in with em do we,  


Instead of engaging in a friendly discussion right off the bat you are trying to anger and entice me. I never said this was a community of thieves those are your own words. I stated what I thought was occurring. As I have said, I'm new here so I'm trying to figure everything out. Luckily, I don't take little pokes seriously, so hopefully one day we can maybe play a battle or two then swap war stories after over beers.

 

Quote:
Any more deep insight about this community you whant to share with us?


I'm glad to know you all are still here supporting a great gaming franchise. I'm glad to know people learned to mod this game and have produced some amazing mods. I've been, for the most part, warmly welcomed here and I appreciate that.

If anything I'd say keep the eyes on the prize...more CC is what we all want right?

And nice to meet you and hopefully we can maybe play a game or two soon!


"To you, we are deeply grateful, and release what little hold we might, as Durandal, have had on your soul.
Go."
- Final Terminal Message, Marathon Infinity
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schrecken

Rep: 195
votes: 15


PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

Quote:
Instead of being supportive, the developers mock users lack of knowledge at times. It was really sad to see and read.


Any links to those posts?
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Dundradal

Rep: 27.9
votes: 4


PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:23 pm Post subject: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Reply with quote

Sure...I was reading this CSO CoI Thread. The "mood" of the thread swings back and forth at times and seems to at least end near the positive side...but there were some posts in there that I found off putting.


"To you, we are deeply grateful, and release what little hold we might, as Durandal, have had on your soul.
Go."
- Final Terminal Message, Marathon Infinity
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In August of 2004, Zappi, Homba, Bambam887, RedScorpion and MOOXE all pitched
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