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7A_Woulf

Rep: 22.1
votes: 2


PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 5:31 am Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Nice work mate!  Very Happy

Looks really great, I like the NATO-style BG icons, and if you ever manage to bring it ashore I promise you have a fan. Wish I could help you, but you seems to have done the unit data and map-making isn't my strongest side (to be honest, a 6-year old could probably make better maps...) but if none else beats me too it, I can always whine about small errors in the units/force pools.  Wink

But what about Horrocks breakthrough? There some really good (and important) battles there, but as Sapa wrote: "I suppose the stratmap should be too stretcht then?"  Sad

Finally; have you read "It never snows in September" by Robert Kershaw? -An awesome book about the German perspective of Market Garden.


"When the tough gets going, I run to live to run another day..."

"Is this trip really necessary?"
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Sapa

Rep: 76.3
votes: 8


PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 6:01 am Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

schrecken wrote (View Post):
SAPA

this is not about you.


thanks Smile
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southern_land

Rep: 155.2
votes: 14


PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 8:45 am Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

platoon_michael wrote (View Post):
You could also consider re-painting the old CCII maps with newer textures.
.


believe me when i say repainting old maps with mew textures is bloody hard work.  It's actually easier to start from scratch and use the old maps strictly as a template.  I "winterized" a few Cc3 maps a way back and realistically it probably wasn't worth the effort.  I'd have been more productive starting something fresh
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vonB

Rep: 32.6
votes: 5


PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 8:57 am Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Quote:
believe me when i say repainting old maps with mew textures is bloody hard work.  It's actually easier to start from scratch and use the old maps strictly as a template.  I "winterized" a few Cc3 maps a way back and realistically it probably wasn't worth the effort.  I'd have been more productive starting something fresh


And that's from someone who KNOWS what he is talking about...
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Hoogley

Rep: 15.7
votes: 4


PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Thanks to all for the kudos.  

Southern_land: thanks for the tip.  I was considering using one or two of the original maps as a starting point for making larger versions, but I'll give that idea the flick based on your advice.  Cheers.

Honestly, I've played CCII a lot.  I'm more interested in creating a new experience.  Besides that, I'd rather make bigger maps.  I know some think that smaller maps are better, but I think larger maps give more opportunity for broader tactics.  Huge maps aren't good for gameplay.

7A_Woulf: Oooh... you worded that badly.  Because, I haven't finished all of the data, as it happens.   Smile   The German BGs are only in first draft; the Allied Force Pool may need revising (according to some, and I'll get to that); the German Force Pool is far from finished; the German units list is going to be a huge problem, as stated earlier; the weapons list is complete only in name, but none of the weapon stats are sorted; and I've only just started actually entering it into the appropriate txt files... interested?

On the weapons; it would be easiest to just pinch everything I can from previous iterations, but would there be any consistency if I did that?  I'm thinking "no", but I'm interested in suggestions and especially experience.

ronson:  Again, you probably shouldn't have said anything.  You seem to have a sound knowledge of battle organisation variations for this particular period of WWII.  I got the majority of my unit types and lists from an online source (www.bayonetstrength.150m.com - bloody fantastic actually) that gave fairly time-centric lists, but nothing that specific (no exact tank types, for example).  I'll mirror this sentiment in a pvt msg, but are you interested and do you have time to maybe provide some advice/collaboration on the allied and axis unit lists?  The German side in particular is looking a little messy at the moment; anyone with clear knowledge would be an asset to me.

And, on the last point; yeah, the fact that the road south of Eindhoven is missing is a sore-point for me too.  Originally, I based my stratmap area on the original CCII stratmap.  As such, because that game is primarily about the airborne effort, the XXX Corps route is not represented in full.  Obviously, as I researched more, I started to realise that I'd missed out a piece of the puzzle.  The problem is; I've already finished a real pretty stratmap.  So, I've been trying to ignore it... damn you all.  :)

If I add it, it makes a major reconsideration of everything in relation to the stratmap and placement of battlemaps.  So, it's not a light decision to make at this stage.  Basically, it means more work.   Sad


"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
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ronson

Rep: 36.7
votes: 5


PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:29 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Quote:
ronson:  Again, you probably shouldn't have said anything.


Ha me and my big mouth again!  Laughing

Sure I'd be glad to be of assistance with the unit lists, mostly my knowledge is of British units, but I'd be happy to scratch around and see what I can dig up for the other nations involved too, as  sometimes they are mentioned in the various regimental accounts of actions in this period.

Yes the 'bayonetstrenght' site does give a good basic understanding of the types and strenghts of various units and is I feel a very good starting point for any venture of this kind.

Another site you might like to look at is 21st Army Group http://www.truxmodels.co.uk/

Drop me a PM anytime and I'll happily respond Smile

Cheers
Ronson


GR member Ronson1  ac 4247033
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Hoogley

Rep: 15.7
votes: 4


PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

ronson, that is a corker site.  Cheers!


"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
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7A_Woulf

Rep: 22.1
votes: 2


PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Talking about the XXX Corps; -Have you thought of creating a stratmap where the airborne units can move aside and leave a clear way for the Guards Armour? It's a small prob with the CC engine that you can't move a BG through a friendly BG...  Sad

Right now I'm a bit short of time, vigour and brain-capacity the few days I'm home during the weekends (six months of night-work have a tendency of breaking a man  Wink ) but let's see what we can do once I'm home for good.

A link though:
http://www.paradata.org.uk/events/arnhem-operation-market-garden

There is one thing I've been thinking about regarding Market Garden for CC: -Is it possible to 'randomise' the map where airborne supply lands? In CC4 and tLD it lands at the designated map, doesn't it? Played board-game in my youth, 'Market-Garden: Decent into Hell ' and there your airborne supply could scatter, much annoying when your evil big-brother and his wicked Germans got your much needed supply...  Crying or Very sad


"When the tough gets going, I run to live to run another day..."

"Is this trip really necessary?"
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Hoogley

Rep: 15.7
votes: 4


PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):
Talking about the XXX Corps; -Have you thought of creating a stratmap where the airborne units can move aside and leave a clear way for the Guards Armour? It's a small prob with the CC engine that you can't move a BG through a friendly BG...  Sad


Actually, the map layout is deliberate.  One of the issues that XXX Corps had was trying to move traffic up and down the route to Arnhem, and this problem held everything up on occasion.  Consequently, I've tried to make the map so that you have to be consciously thinking about this strategic/logistic element of keeping your units from getting in each others way and causing "roadblocks".

My personal concept for gameplay is this:

Allies: take and hold your bridge objectives with the airborne; keep the airborne alive until XXX Corps arrives; try to get XXX Corps up the road as quickly as you can; keep your supply line open; defend against counter attacks.

Germans: stop the allies from gaining the bridges; eradicate the airborne before they get reinforced and resupplied; hold up XXX Corps as much as possible; try to cut the allied supply line; generally harry the allies to cause confusion.

So, for the allies, much like in CCII, speed is a necessity.  Initially, you need to move your airborne quickly to reach the bridge objectives before the Germans stop you.  You also need to try and move your stronger armoured units up the route as quickly as you can to support, relieve, and resupply the airborne troops, so you need to keep the highway clear and win battles decisively and quickly, otherwise the road will quickly get backed up with units trying to move.  While this is your main thrust, you've also got this very vulnerable supply line to try and protect, so you will be second guessing where the Germans are going to attack, and trying to leave behind units to defend; otherwise they'll take valuable time to send back down the line, and that whole time you'll be out of supply.

The idea for the Germans will be that, just like in real life, you will start off with a pitiful handful of mobilised units, and you'll need to use them cleverly in order to stop the operation dead in it's tracks.  Each turn your BGs will gain more and more units in their Force Pools, and more BGs will show up from off map to aid in the defensive.  So, the longer you hold out, the stronger your position becomes.  The other idea is that the maps for the bridges need to be constructed in such a way that, if the Germans hold the map and the allies attack (edit - from the bridge), then the Germans stand a good chance of maintaining the map.  This means that, for the Germans, being in possession of the bridge maps is crucial.  And, lastly, attacking and cutting off the allied supply line will help to weaken the spearhead - chop off the feet and the head will die(?)

All of this will create tense gameplay - if it come together properly.   Very Happy

7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):

There is one thing I've been thinking about regarding Market Garden for CC: -Is it possible to 'randomise' the map where airborne supply lands? In CC4 and tLD it lands at the designated map, doesn't it? Played board-game in my youth, 'Market-Garden: Decent into Hell ' and there your airborne supply could scatter, much annoying when your evil big-brother and his wicked Germans got your much needed supply...  Crying or Very sad


This would be a great addition to increase the "realism" of the engine, but it's not something that exists currently (unless there's something I've missed?), and I doubt tLD would ever see it.  Good idea, though.


"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live


Last edited by Hoogley on Sun May 16, 2010 10:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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pagskier

Rep: 25


PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

I hope you make that XXX corp road maps! So axis have opportunity to hold the brits from the start!
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schrecken

Rep: 195
votes: 15


PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 8:35 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

yeh... I think though the AB battles are significant you do need the "Saved by the Cavalry" option lurking in the background.


Then once XXX corps get moving they need to keep the line of supply open, all adds to the drama.
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CSO_Talorgan

Rep: 72.5
votes: 1


PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

vonB wrote (View Post):
The biggest hurdle being the issue of Map Coding I think


It's the graphics which present the challenge to us left-brained types.
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Hoogley

Rep: 15.7
votes: 4


PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 10:18 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Hmmm... ok, well, I can add the XXX Corps breakthrough I guess.  It shouldn't be too much extra work, though it will definitely draw things out a little.  It just means that a few things need to be reconsidered: the stratmap will need a major overhaul for a start; I will need to redirect BG spots to represent the German forces south of Eindhoven, which means I'll need to rethink what BGs will be represented in Arnhem.  Not necessarily bad, as Arnhem was looking like it was going to get pretty cluttered with units all trying to move around each other.  I will also need to reconsider my battlemap layout, as XXX Corps needs to be able to reach Arnhem in a timeframe akin to that of history.

If anyone has suggestions, please, feel free.  Smile

I will have to omit VIII and XII Corps, though; there is just not enough resources in tLD to have it all.   Confused


"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
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Nomada_Firefox

Rep: 32.9
votes: 9


PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Very impressive work, I like a lot the images from graphics.


"Nada escapa a mis dominios".
Clan Nomada Web Site
FirefoxCCMods Web Site
(Only www.FirefoxCCMods.com is a English web site).
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dacman82

Rep: 4.5
votes: 1


PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 9:49 am Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Hoogley, You are my God. Praise be Jebus


Softly softly, catchee monkee...
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vonB

Rep: 32.6
votes: 5


PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 10:37 am Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Quote:
It's the graphics which present the challenge to us left-brained types.


Being a left brained type myself, I can relate to that  Cool .  However, what I mean is the challange of introducing some 'automatic' process to produce Map Coding, and on that I am stumped.  Just can't think of a way, except to make the manual process faster, and again, I can't think of a way....

And we haven't even touched on the challanges of automating Roofs, but I see that as an easier issue to deal with.
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Hoogley

Rep: 15.7
votes: 4


PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 11:59 am Post subject: Break in transmision Reply with quote

Hey,

Sorry guys, I've got to do some web design for my boss, so I will be distracted for a few nights.  I'll get back into the mod as soon as I can.  Catch you then.  Wink

Hoogs.


"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
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Hoogley

Rep: 15.7
votes: 4


PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 9:15 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Ok... Well, I'm sorry guys; don't know what I was thinking.  Adding the road south of Eindhoven to the Belgium border is a bit of an issue, unless anybody knows if you can arbitrarily extend the campaign map.  All my experiments with altering gadget sizes suggests a resounding no chance.  

And my stratmap has, in truth, already been modified a ways from reality in order to fit it all in, and squashing everything into the same image size means redoing the entire map!!!!!, which - I will be straight with you - does not excite me.

So, unless I can make the map bigger, I'm not going to do it.


"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
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schrecken

Rep: 195
votes: 15


PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Keep it how it is... it's your vision.
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Hoogley

Rep: 15.7
votes: 4


PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 10:00 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Reply with quote

Ok, let's get interactive.

I am not entirely satisfied with my battlemap region layout for the campaign map.  It's fine, but it could be better.

So, if anyone is interested, let's have a competition... of sorts... without the competitive element present... so that would not be a competition.  Well, let's have a not a competition.

The rules of the not a competition are:

* Copy the campaign map from this thread.

* Open it in the graphics app of your choice.  Mark with red circles (like circling an ad' in the paper) where you think the battle map regions should be.

* Save; convert to .jpeg; upload it in a post on this thread.


Important considerations:

* 64 map limit

* XXX Corps need to be able to make it Arnhem - if they were moving along the highway "map path", one battlemap per turn, each and every turn, without interference - in 2-3 days.
 I hope that made sense.

* Identify which maps have bridges.

* Historical Drop Zones have to be represented.  Identify them on the map.

* Links across waterways should ONLY be across bridge (and ferry?) maps.

* Identify which maps are allied/axis supply maps
(truly, the allies should just have the one south of Eindhoven, but if you disagree then stake a claim!).

You can comment on any of your choices in the post, but there is no obligation to.

Cool.  Lets see what everybody's got.   Very Happy


"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
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