Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 1:28 am Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD
Thanks for the answer!
It sounds damn nice being able to manoeuver, defend stuff
the tactical map will be usefull!
everytime I consult the thread it overmatch my expectations!!!
can't wait for that!
Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:48 am Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD
Would be a rather large map width wise and a lot of detail in between to boot. Would make for an interesting approach battle thats for sure. Dont know how much of the attacking force would actually reach either objective without sustaining significant loses.
I cant see why it wouldn't work though, however, there are those that prefer the smaller CC2 type maps.
I forsee the day when the whole campaign will take place on just one single map... about 100 times larger than todays CCMT maps..
I also have this dream. Imaging if the engine showed the campaign map in a way similar to the extreme zoomed out battle maps; small icons representing real time movement of your troops as you manouver around the campaign map. When an engagement occurs, the real time actually freezes whilst you zoom down to battlemap level to fight it out, and then zooms back out after the engagement is over.
That would be awesome.
I also don't think 3D has to be a bad word. I think that you could do exactly the same game in 3D; lock the view in overhead to keep the CC feel to the game, but then the player can zoom in and out of the map.
God, that would be awesome, to see CC become totally modernised. It would definitely cost more in development, particularly in order to do it right; 3D should only add to the experience, not detract from it. Then there's the problem of losing easy community modding; but wait, if you can use the inhouse tools of Far Cry to make your own custom maps, then whoever developed CC3D could just chuck in all the tools necessary for people like us to carve it all to hell.
"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:10 am Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD
So, ronson is now officially the mod's chief (and only) researcher, with a particlar knowledge of the British military. Already he has provided a wealth of information on British combat organisations. As such, we've reworked the allied BGs for XXX Corps to better represent actual combat formations, rather than on paper OOB lists. They still have the same number of BGs, they're just slightly different. So, this is the reworked allied BGs:
Of course, this means I will have to redo the BG images and lists to reflect these changes.
We are still looking for people with knowledge of OMG in relation to the German forces, particular battles, detailed weapons information (mm steel penetration at various ranges? Who knows this stuff??), and any specialist information that will be useful. And, if anybody can supply aerial photographs of any key battlezones, then these would be more than appreciated. Everbody who contributes will be mentioned in the credits.
And, I'm still looking for map makers. Trying to find a good map maker is like trying to find a good woman.
"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD
Hey Hoogley,
With "Last Stand Arnhem" coming out soon I hope your angle to this battle can still generate enough interest. You should consider using the maps from the new game. You could draw them from scratch after original aerial photographs but they would still look the same. I have hundreds of these photographs and would be happy to share them with you (btw, the S3T team have them too ) . Here is a link to get you started (it's in Dutch though). http://watwaswaar.nl/
Question: why do you opt for a stratmap with this orientation? I thought the TLD stratmap was vertical?
Note on stratmap movement: (this applies to CC5) using Mafi's RtB tool you can link any map to another and that way you can create shortcuts. Don't know about TLD because I have not tried modding that one yet.
Remarks on spelling on your stratmap: generally correct but there are a few minor errors: "St. Odenrode" should be "St. Oedenrode" or "Sint Oedenrode", " s'-Hertogenbosch" should be " 's-Hertogenbosch", "Benenden-Leeuwen" should be "Beneden-Leeuwen" , "Passewaaj" should be "Passewaaij".
With "Last Stand Arnhem" coming out soon I hope your angle to this battle can still generate enough interest. You should consider using the maps from the new game. You could draw them from scratch after original aerial photographs but they would still look the same. I have hundreds of these photographs and would be happy to share them with you (btw, the S3T team have them too ) . Here is a link to get you started (it's in Dutch though). http://watwaswaar.nl/
Question: why do you opt for a stratmap with this orientation? I thought the TLD stratmap was vertical?
Note on stratmap movement: (this applies to CC5) using Mafi's RtB tool you can link any map to another and that way you can create shortcuts. Don't know about TLD because I have not tried modding that one yet.
Remarks on spelling on your stratmap: generally correct but there are a few minor errors: "St. Odenrode" should be "St. Oedenrode" or "Sint Oedenrode", " s'-Hertogenbosch" should be " 's-Hertogenbosch", "Benenden-Leeuwen" should be "Beneden-Leeuwen" , "Passewaaj" should be "Passewaaij".
* Bugger. I must have missed the memo about Last Stand Arnhem, because I've only just found these screenshots. Before I saw these, I thought this game looked kind of dead in the water, which is partly why I picked up the batton again. That and downloading TLD. It looks good; I am now excited. :)
Hmmm... this bears consideration. I've put heaps of work in so far, it would be annoying to stop now. I could wait for LSA to come out and make this a mod for that engine. It seems possible LSA will be out before this mod is finished... again, hmmmm... might as well push on, what.
* Using the maps from the new game would, indeed, help my cause. If I've got any battlemap zones that aren't represented herein, I can always add more maps.
* I went for this orientation because when I started I was making the mod for CC5, and these were the stratmap dimensions for that game. So, there was more room lengthwise than heightwise, which is why the map is turned 90 degrees counterclockwise. Actually, now that I look at it, I see that the CCTLD stratmap may be a different size to the original CC5; hope that won't be a problem, as I'm really not keen to redo the map again.
* I am actually trying to make sure there are no shortcuts. The idea, from a gameplay perspective, is that the Germans should be able to drop a blocking force anywhere along the route to hold up XXX Corps, and the bridges should act as choke points. If XXX Corps can just easily skip past these blockades then the whole element of delay is lost. I am, in fact, considering strategically removing one or two map connections to increase the choke point aspect of the Son, St. Oedenrode, Veghel, and Best bridges. This may deviate slightly from reality, but there has to be a reason in the game to take and hold the bridges, which there isn't if you can easily just drive around them.
* Thanks for the spelling tips; I think this is a combination of bad English spellings of Dutch words, and me just producing typos in a rush.
"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:01 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD
There are a lot of interesting possibilities for what LSA is going to be able to do, based on the limited screenshots available. However, schrecken is not giving out any secrets, so who knows.
If they've implemented half of what the screenshots suggest, then I will have to eat my previous words about S3T not really adding much extra hardcore functionality to the engines; they've quite possibly outdone themselves this time. For example, it appears they've implemented a system for assault crossings, which solves Nijmengen Bridge; they also appear to have allowances to move multiple BGs onto a single map, which is just freaking fantastic, and suggests a plethora of gameplay elements including being able to move XXX Corps up a route when it is already populated; and I am hoping that blowing up bridges is going to be in there somewhere as well.
The only annoying thing is that now I am making a mod which is exactly the same op as the next iteration of CC, will work better on the next iteration, and will probably need changes when I figure out what the next iteration is capable of.
I think it's best to keep going with the idea that this is a mod for TLD, and we can consider whether to change engines after LSA has been released.
"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:43 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD
Keep working on a mod for tLD.
Why?
A) We never know for sure when LSA arrives.
B) And when it comes, I'm (sadly) sure it will take a few patches to get a working product. (...or?)
C) Not everyone will buy it, due to financially or other reasons. (There is always peps that think their favourite version is the ultimate CC )
D) You're good Hoogley, but you can't work against an un-released product...
"When the tough gets going, I run to live to run another day..."
A) We never know for sure when LSA arrives.
B) And when it comes, I'm (sadly) sure it will take a few patches to get a working product. (...or?)
C) Not everyone will buy it, due to financially or other reasons. (There is always peps that think their favourite version is the ultimate CC )
D) You're good Hoogley, but you can't work against an un-released product...
Exactly right 7A_Woulf. All of the reasons that have passed through my mind so far.
"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:12 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD
You should really try and draw maps yourself. If you are familiar with the pen tool in photoshop and would use existing textures (Dodam's for instance) you could make a lot of progress quite quickly I reckon.
LSA might have a few novelties but I am not sure how novel they are. The supposedly 2 battle group icons could be 1 icon after all. Seen that type of indication of units also in the GJS battle group patches in the BG screen (infantry with armour attached) . Perhaps people would want to play Market Garden on TLD anyway.
You should really try and draw maps yourself. If you are familiar with the pen tool in photoshop and would use existing textures (Dodam's for instance) you could make a lot of progress quite quickly I reckon.
LSA might have a few novelties but I am not sure how novel they are. The supposedly 2 battle group icons could be 1 icon after all. Seen that type of indication of units also in the GJS battle group patches in the BG screen (infantry with armour attached) . Perhaps people would want to play Market Garden on TLD anyway.
Pete, you could quite possibly be reading my mind. Last night I was experimenting with map making, because I'm interested in something; would CC work with photo-realistic battlemaps? I've been playing with texturing to see if you can build maps out of photo objects in a way that makes it look more realistic. And, in fact, I had an epiphany whilst writing this reply. Cheers, Pete!
So, there are two ways you can do this:
a) build a palette of photo objects and try to texture paint the map in such a way that it looks more "realistic" than "artistic". This is what I was trying to do last night, and is the same thing as normal map building, when all is said and done.
b) (This idea excites me) Build a map in a 3D map builder, say... Far Cry (which I own), and then take screenshots of the overhead view of said map and paste them together to build your final 2D image of a fully rendered 3D environment. Hmmmm... In theory, this would actually make the graphic design part of building maps a lot easier, and better looking; in theory. I haven't actually tried to do this yet, so I don't know what the outcome would be. Time and learning curve permitting, I should have something to show y'all within the week. ;)
Hmmmm.... another thought I just had; what about 3D rendered vehicle images? And, can you extract the soldier sprites and put in shots of 3D rendered soldiers? Would they look better?
All very interesting. *rubbing hands together* See, this is what happens when an artist build mods!
"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:15 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD
Unfortunately, the Far Cry 2 map editor doesn't live up to my expectations; the palette is a little more limited than I was lead to believe from the demo trailer, and the rendering definition is not great enough to get a decent screenshot at height. That said, I think it could still be useful for making topographical shading layers for the maps.
So, without any forthcoming suggestions considered, I think 3D map making might be out. I'm not interested in making maps in Maya or similar, as the idea was to use software specialised for map building in order to speed up the process as well as make it look better. I couldn't be arsed mucking about in a full 3D construction/rendering program. Partly because I've never really used one before, and it would take time to learn.
I'm going to try for what I gather is pretty similar to the standard method of map construction. The only philosophy I may have that is different to what I've seen so far is that I am keen to streamline the map making process in order to speed things up. I intend to collect a palette of photo objects split into categories. So, each category has a collection of images that are basically tiles that would be placed onto the map canvas, and then worked a little to make it all blend together. I think the difference is that, whereas the maps I've seen to date are more akin to paintings, this would be closer to collage.
The upside is that - after compiling the palette, of course - the map making process should fly, and the maps may even look a little bit more "photo-like". The downside is that they may stray slightly from 100% accurate, as we are working from a set palette, rather than trying to specifically redraw a particular area to exactness. I don't think it will stray so far as to be a concern.
This is all theory, of course, as I am yet to successfully build a CC map. And, if any experienced map makers read this, they may feel compelled to inform me that I am entirely deluded in my assumptions.
"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
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