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TRIVIA: Are soldiers credited for killing surrendered troops?

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7A_Woulf

Rep: 22.1
votes: 2


PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:21 pm Post subject: Leader casualties! Reply with quote

Am I the only one who finds the leader casualties in the CC games extremely high  Question  

Been thinking about it from time to time, ever since I started to play. I don't believe every soldier is a sniper, but it seems like the majority of the first kills always is the squads leader...  Shocked

As an example I played some LSA today, in the last battle I played there were some sneaking around before I could move in on the last VL of the map, defended by three German units. My US airborne had a Platoon Command, a MG Infantry and a Rifle squad attacking, the three first kills were;

1) The squad leader of the MG infantry
2) The platoon leader in the Command squad
3) The squad leader in the Rifle squad

-After that, the rest of the men started to die.
It seems to be that high casualties no matter what, it don't seems to depend on the terrain, the firing squad or what the dying leaders unit are doing... I've accepted it as a part of CC, but sometimes I fell like it's a bit strange.  Rolling Eyes


"When the tough gets going, I run to live to run another day..."

"Is this trip really necessary?"
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Therion

Rep: 27.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: Leader casualties! Reply with quote

Historically, there was a large disproportion between casualties of small unit leaders and ordinary grunts.
Leading such units was a very dangerous job.


Wonderland - my mod for Armored Brigade

Killing for peace is like fucking for orgasm.
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vonB

Rep: 32.6
votes: 5


PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: Leader casualties! Reply with quote

I can't say I have noticed this in proportion to the total killed/injured particularly.  What is interesting is that you indicate that they seem to be the first one's to get killed/injured which I wouldn't necessarily have expected.

Just saw and interesting program on TV "Wehrmacht: The turning point", where several Russian Front veterens were interviewed, some of them who had been through the entire campaign (1941 ~ 45).

One of the infantryman's comments was that the life expectancy of a lieutenenat was about 11 days.

Officers who lead from the front are surely more likely to suffer higher caualties than other ranks, and of course it must vary from theatre to theatre and at different times.

Do others find the same?
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7A_Woulf

Rep: 22.1
votes: 2


PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:56 pm Post subject: Re: Leader casualties! Reply with quote

Therion wrote (View Post):
Historically, there was a large disproportion between casualties of small unit leaders and ordinary grunts.
Leading such units was a very dangerous job.


Do you, or anyone else got some numbers on that? Would be 'fun' to see (the word fun seems a bit inappropriate on this subject...) Played some more LSA now, two days into my vs. AI GC I've got leader casualties on 1/3 of my allied force. Seems high, but I know that you guys are right about higher casualty-numbers among small unit leaders.

But I still find the fact that they seems to die first a bit strange...  Rolling Eyes


"When the tough gets going, I run to live to run another day..."

"Is this trip really necessary?"
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squadleader_id

Rep: 53.1
votes: 7


PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:09 am Post subject: Re: Leader casualties! Reply with quote

High casualty rates for leaders in CC might be attributed to the fact that leaders are usually in the front (or front group) of squads when moving assaulting.
Leaders and assistant leaders in CC squads are usually armed with lighter weapons (SMG, pistol) which makes them move slightly faster...that's why most of the time they're in front of the squad.
That's just my theory...haven't really observed any consistency with it though Smile
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Pzt_Kanov

Rep: 30.7
votes: 9


PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:25 am Post subject: Re: Leader casualties! Reply with quote

I do have noticed, Mortars and indirect fire seem to target them with higher priority too.


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papa_whisky

Rep: 42.2
votes: 4


PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:32 am Post subject: Re: Leader casualties! Reply with quote

Being a lieutenant during WWI and WWII was a very dangerous job. It is totally realistic that their casualties are high and they were always deliberately targeted by enemy forces which ever side you were on. A quick way to make an attack stall is to take out the OIC.

This reminds me about some comments on infantry aborting assaults in CC, I wonder if the aborts happen with greater frequency if those teams are outside a command team's control radius.  If I play CC and I find a command team I do my best to destroy it, AI appears to do the same.
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7A_Woulf

Rep: 22.1
votes: 2


PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:20 am Post subject: Re: Leader casualties! Reply with quote

There's no coincident that US Lieutenants were called "90 days wonders"; -That was all the time they got at West Point before they were committed to field-duty thanks to the high loses.  Confused

My main concern, and question, is why the leaders so frequently are the first in a squad to bite the grass?
Or is it just like other parts of Murphy's Law; -We tend to remember bad things, that's why we feel like they always happens to us  Question

But I think my first post validate my point though, I'll keep my eyes open for more incidents.


"When the tough gets going, I run to live to run another day..."

"Is this trip really necessary?"
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southern_land

Rep: 140.2
votes: 14


PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:35 am Post subject: Re: Leader casualties! Reply with quote

Quote from The Vietnam War By James E. Westheider

"...the state of israel lost 2500 during the 1973 Yom Kippur war, for example but only 85 on them were privates, 95% of the dead were officers..."

and

"7891 officers, including cheif warrent officers died in vietnam..."

from Rommel's Afrika Korps: Tobruk to El Alamein By Pier Paolo Battistelli

"...DAK officers paid a heavy price for the 'lead from the front' principle... Between 18 November 1941 and 20 feburaru 1942 the 21st Pzdv had 47 officers killed, 61 wounded and 40 missing..."
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CC_CO

Rep: 32.1
votes: 3


PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: Leader casualties! Reply with quote

I'm not sure, but after the winter of 1941 I think the average life expectancy of German officers on the eastern front, was 11 days. So from 1942 many of the German platoons and companies was lead by NCOs and sergeants.

In 1943 when 12. SS Hitler Jugend was formed they had problems finding SS officers for the division, thus they had to scramble some 50 Wehrmacht Officers into the divisional ranks. At that point already, there were in overall a grave shortage of officers.
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diggin.robat

Rep: 39.7
votes: 2


PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:30 pm Post subject: Re: Leader casualties! Reply with quote

In CC-terms I think it has something to do with the "aiming system". If you aim at an enemy infantry unit it seems your men always attack the unit leader. Perhaps he present the unit´s POA for the engine to calculate hit and kill chance.


GW modding team
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dgfred

Rep: 46.8


PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:54 am Post subject: Re: Leader casualties! Reply with quote

Plus... 'If' you had your unit firing on an enemy unit in battle... who would you tell them to aim at first  Wink .


Sports Freak/ CC Commander/ Panzerblitz Commander
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pvt_Grunt

Rep: 83.7
votes: 5


PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:45 am Post subject: Re: Leader casualties! Reply with quote

Even in Hollywood movies the officers say "Don't salute me, then they'll know who to aim for". I think it is well known you would aim for the highest rank
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Dauphin

Rep: 12.2
votes: 1


PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:30 pm Post subject: Re: Leader casualties! Reply with quote

There's a penalty when your officer is having a risk or if you make him have a risk above his ability or knowledge.
Some actions are Ok  because they are carefully prepared.
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ronson

Rep: 36.7
votes: 5


PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: Leader casualties! Reply with quote

Eevn without the distinguishing marks, the badges of rank, different cut of uniform or equipment etc. which in most armies were covered when in combat, the very nature of a junior officer or squad leaders job tends to put him into more danger.

If you are leading a platoon of 30 , company of 100+ or a squad of 10 men , you have to be aware of whats happening at all times so that means even in defence, you can't just sit in a foxhole, you have to go around the positions speaking to your subordinates, checking and setting arcs of fire, camoflage, or just making sure everyones awake! In so doing you're constantly putting yourself at a higher risk as you move around.
In an attack of course these problems are multiplied, imagine the nightmare for German company leaders in somewhere like Stalingrad, attempting to controll the actions of 100+ men when , if you're lucky, you can see the rest of your HQ section...little wonder officers caps, visable badges of rank and decorations became the first 'casualties'.

So although it does seem unfair the hits on leaders does seem to correspond to reality.

Cheers
Ronson


GR member Ronson1  ac 4247033
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:29 pm Post subject: Re: Leader casualties! Reply with quote

Thing is that in CC scale battles there should be 1-3 officers maximum.
NCOs casualty rate - the typical squad leaders - was/is very high for all sides and it was/is pretty time consuming to train NCO for each squad that's why, like in above mentioned 12-SS-PzD in time of Normandy, there was not a big shortage of officers, but a huge shortage of NCOs when privates w/o effective training were commanding most of squads (as pictured in TRSM), thus heavy casualties and lack of results in first days of combat.
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