[kawasaky]

I just read the thread:
http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5194&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
 
that I stopped reading back in 2008 after several "contributions" in the very beginning, so I have missed the discussion between Polermachos and mochoho. However, it is better to start a new topic insted continuing the one linked...

Polemarchos, you are quite right when you say "...I dont defend any of these actions, but it is strange that a Croat points out Serb barbarism when it was the Croats that inflicted the larger margin of civilian murders during 1941-1945...", however, it would be wise to restrain oneself with generalizations like "the Croats that inflicted the larger margin of civilian murders during 1941-1945", because those are not only insulting (would you say that the French assisted the Holocaust a lot, or would you say Vichy instead?), but also quite wrong. Insted you should have said NDH supporters, or ustashe, or nazi-collaborators. It isn't just some hair-splitting, it is the crucial thing.
Why so?
So called NDH was founded by some 300 ustashe from Italy, and further 1200-1400 from Austria (they were Croats of course, but they were stationed in the mentioned countries while The Kingdom of Yugoslavia existed, but you surely know that [not a sarcasam!]). In the several "opening" months of the NDH some 20.000-35.000 "wild ustashe" (in fact gangs of criminals running around unrestrained whatsoever, and raising hell - in fact the kind of people that would have been jailed, or would already serve their sentences, if it wasn't wartime) appeared. I think that some 37.000 people surely don't represent a nation. Their ranks swelled later some, surely, but were still minor if compared to mobolization rate of the Peoples Liberating Army of Croatia (NOVH).
In May of 1945. the NDH fielded some 130.000-150.000 troops BOTH ustashe and domobrani (it would be "home guard", regular army consisting of the Yugoslav Kingdom reservists and the new conscripts raised by the NDH).
Opposing to that, between the second half of 1942 and May 1945 Croatia (NOVH) gave 200.000 of ethnic Croats (from the modern Croatia's territories only, not the territories included in the NDH, or rest of Yugoslavia), and some 33% of operational units of the NOVJ. Generally speaking, although the values differ through space and time (but it would take me 150 pages to go into details), there was some 65% of ethnic Croats in NOVH. So, there was some 22% of Croats from Croatia (again, from the modern Croatia's territories only, not the territories included in the NDH, or the rest of Yugoslavia) in NOVJ. It is interesting to note that in the final 3 monts of the war NOVJ numbered 750.000-800.000 soldiers.

I will write a few about chetnik-ustasha-Italian/German issue later, as well as on some other interesting things, but gtg now...

[kawasaky]

I have to dwell on numbers a bit more.

Like I have said, there was some 22% of Croats from Croatia (again, from the modern Croatia's territories only, not the territories included in the NDH, or the rest of Yugoslavia) in NOVJ, while their [Croatian] part in the population of Yugoslavia was 16%. It means that the Croats from Croatia gave 6% more than expected on the federal level.
On the federal level, pre war population of Croatia (Croats+minorities) made up 25% of Yugoslavia's population. Since the NOVH made up 34% of the NOVJ, it means that Croatia gave 8% more combatants then expected, on the federal level.
Since the Serbs from Croatia constituted some 25% of the NOVH, it means that the "Croatian Serbs" gave 70% more than expected due to their percentage in the total population of Croatia, but it says absolutely nothing about the alleged Serbian dominance in the NOVJ. It stands true that the Serbia proper had the advantage over Croatia in 1941, but after destruction of Užice project, Serbia was pacifised until very late in the war.

If we divide the war in YU in six logical parts (each covering 6 months period), then we have the following numbers of brigades, as the lowest joint unit and the foundation of the Partisan army, during the period of territorial (republics') liberating armies, before their joining into Yugoslav Army (JA) in March 1945:

21 Dec 1941 - 30 June 1942
Montenegro - 3 BDEs
B&H ------------ 1 BDE
Serbia proper- 1 BDE
1st Proleterian BDE (exteritorrial)

1 July - 31 Dec 1942
Montenegro - 3 BDEs
B&H ----------- 10 BDEs
Serbia proper- 1 BDE
Slovenia ------- 4 BDEs
Croatia --------- 18 BDEs

1 Jan - 30 June 1943
Montenegro - 3 BDEs
B&H ----------- 12 BDEs
Serbia proper- 1 BDE
Vojvodina ----- 3 BDEs
Slovenia ------- 5 BDEs
Croatia --------- 20 BDEs + 4 dissolved (9th Dalmatian Division in the closing of Op. Weiss)

1 July - 31 Dec 1943
Montenegro - 6 BDEs
B&H ----------- 23 BDEs
Serbia proper- 5 BDEs
Vojvodina ----- 5 BDEs
Kosovo --------- 1 BDE
Slovenia ------- 17 BDEs
Macedonia ---- 1 BDE
Croatia --------- 38 BDEs

1 Jan - 30 June 1944
Montenegro - 8 BDEs
B&H ----------- 30 BDEs
Serbia proper-20 BDEs
Vojvodina ----- 6 BDEs
Kosovo --------- 1 BDE
Slovenia ------- 19 BDEs
Macedonia ---- 3 BDEs
Croatia --------- 45 BDEs

1 July - 31 Dec 1944:
Montenegro - 11 BDEs
B&H ------------ 34 BDEs
Serbia proper-30 BDEs
Vojvodina ----- 12 BDEs
Kosovo --------- 8 BDE
Slovenia ------- 19 BDEs
Macedonia ---- 15 BDEs
Croatia --------- 52 BDEs

Source:
Dubravica, Branko, Vojska antifašisticke Hrvatske 1941-1945, Zagreb, 1996
Enciklopedija Jugoslavije, II knjiga, Zagreb, 1956

[kawasaky]

From what I have written there are some obvious conclusions.

- Serbia [proper] fell short of expectations of her participation in the Peoples Liberation Combat (NOB), while Croatia participated more than expected (based on percentages of the respective Republics in the population of YU).

- Serbs from Serbia were either idle, or joined chetniks, only to increase their participation in the NOB late in 1943, when the course of war was obvious even to those with an IQ of a plant. If it wasn't for the Serbs from B&H and Croatia, the Serbs as a nation would have failed in their participation in the NOB miserably.

- In the most dangerous and the most intensive period of the NOB Croatian Partisans were a pivot, and an insurance that the movement will carry on even if Tito and the Supreme HQ were captured or killed during the offensives Weiss and Schwarz (first half of 1943).


On chetniks...

I ain't an expert for those criminals, but I do know a few crucial things. Like the fact that they were imbued with Nikola Pasic's ideas of the Greater Serbia, that, they concluded, should reach west as far as the line Virovitica-Sisak-Karlovac-Ogulin-Karlobag, that is deep in Croatia.
It is one of the reasons why more than 230 Chetnik Committees in Croatia and B&H almost started a rebelion against the YU in 1939 after the Cvetkovic-Macek agreement and the constitution of Banovina of Croatia.
During the WWII their goals never changed. Their primary goal was creation of the Greater Serbia, through Yugoslavia under the Serbian hegemony if possible, if not then direct annexation of the targeted areas to Serbia. Their secondary goal was preservation of monarchy.

Mihailovic was a minister in the the YU Gvt in London, he was under it's control, so the King and the Gvt are directly responsible for everything he and his "troops" did (i.e. genocide of the non-Serb population in the eastern Bosnia), or failed to do (i.e. fighting the Germans and the others).
The local chetnik commanders started to "legalize" their units in the German area commands as early as Fall 1941! In the Italian occupied areas of Croatia, B&H and Montenegro they were directly sponsored by the Italians.
Chetniks openly fought on the Axis side since the offensive against Užice, or Autumn 1941, and their participation only increased from that point, to reach it's peak in March 1943 when large force of chetniks [7000-11000 combatants, depending on the source] was destroyed in the closing of the Op. Weiss (the NOVJ shattered them so badly that they ceased playing anything near the major role during the rest of WWII in YU).
After the capitulation of Italy they turned to the Germans for sponsorship, and were tightly bounded with them until the end.

The main chetnik force in Croatia was "Dinarska divizija". As the follower of the Greater Serbian programme, the division simply continued their [chauvinist Serbs] aggressive actions against the Croats and other non-Serbs, only in war circumstances, with much harsher consequences. It was merely institutionalized terror against the helpless, without a shred of anti-fascism. Their excuse was ustasha terror on Serbs, although they didn't fight the NDH (except several attacks on some smaller units in the beginning of the war), but collaborated openly with it's regime.
It clearly designates those Serbs as traitors, and even worse, considering the attrocities of ustaše against their people. It was the perverse relation in which the victim was in synergy with it's hangman.

That kind of cowardly behaviour caused some disturbances within the chetnik movement in Croatia. The Serbs who really stood up against the oppression could not have accepted the situation and switched to the Partisan side, to fight alongside Croatian anti-fascists. It happened rather early in the war and has nothing to do with the Tito's amnestion to the collaborators who join the Partisans (ustaše excluded) from Autumn 1944.

Mochoho wrote in one of his posts (in the above linked topic) about the mass defection of the chetniks in Autumn 1944. I too know that story, although I never managed to find some numbers regarding the issue. But I do know that the chetniks weren't the only defectors, there was a lot of domobrans (throughout the whole war actually), gendarmes and even Wehrmacht legionares (i.e. 369th div.). Back on chetnik defectors... One very good Croatian historian recently said in conversation on that issue, that "the most of them [chetnik defectors] were deliberately sent to their deaths in senseless charges against the German defensive lines in Syrmia" [1945]. I will ask him to elborate it a bit and to point me to some sources, but it could explain why the NOVJ suffered so hard a loss during the penetration of the line (not the only one of course).

To cut it short, chetniks were collaborators, and as guilty of treason and genocide as ustaše are. They enjoyed first the Italian and since her capitulation, the German sponsorship. They openly collaborated with the NDH (i.e. they fought alongside the Axis and the NDH troops in anti-Partisan ops; their wounded were treated in the NDH hospitals, and their families were entitled some monetary compensation if their members fighting in chetnik or MVAC units were killed).
Chetniks were anti-fascists only nominally, mainly through Churchill's efforts.

[funky_ribar]

http://www.vojska.net/eng/world-war-2/yugoslavia/brigade/