[davidssfx]

Posted at Matrix:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2846682&mpage=1&key=&#2846682
 
Hi,
I've revisited the real walls concept for TLD using the GT2.0 mod.
Since the soldier path finding has been greatly improved ... it appears infantry units will end up together, even after being separated due to complex routes through doors and windows.

EDIT: (in italics) Cut from further down in this thread ...
After some more testing ... I've concluded with:
1. Soldiers can not move through exterior wall elements
2. Line of Sight through exterior walls when adjacent, except for bunker walls
3. Interior walls: soldiers can move through, but all Line of Sight is blocked.

Real walls explained:
1. Exterior walls: soldiers can not pass through, and no Line of Sight (L.o.S.) through ... even when adjacent
2. Interior walls: soldiers can pass through, but no Line of Sight through ... even when adjacent

How real walls effects game play

Movement:
a. Soldiers must enter/exit buildings through doors and windows only. Buildings side be side (in a row), but separated by exterior wall elements ... may require way points on side of buildings that the player wants soldiers to transit ... since buildings of this type need to be exited before moving to next building. Without way points ... soldiers decide which side to transit.
b. Soldiers can move through Interior walls, due to the complexity of some buildings interior wall floor plan.
c. Movement through bunkers now seems more reasonable, and no soldiers getting stuck in the high hindrance, multiple layer bunker wall element.

Targeting:
a. Soldiers firing out of buildings must be positioned in front of windows/doors in order to get L.o.S.
Most of the time soldiers will line up in front of windows and doors, but occasionally a move order may be required to get a specific L.o.S.
b. There is no longer the ability to fire through corners of buildings.
c. Angles of fire are reduced also, which require more detailed arrangement of infantry units.
d. Not all soldiers of a unit may be able acquire L.o.S. (at the same time) when firing out of a building

Cover:
a. Since interior walls don't permit L.o.S through ... soldiers can retreat behind an interior wall for cover, from fire coming from outside the building.
b. Interior walls separate rooms in each building ... therefore different tactics may be required.

MG Units:
a. All MG's need to be maximum three soldiers ... otherwise there is significant targeting issues for the soldier with the MG. With three soldiers, this is rarely a problem.

Problems:
a. I saw one map so far in TLD with no windows or doors coded in buildings ... Juno, I think. So this will need to be corrected.

Overall, this method of simulating walls seems more realistic regarding movement and L.o.S.

here is the file ...

[Tejszd]

Sounds interesting, thank you davidssfx!!!

[davidssfx]

After more testing (real walls) ... it seems soldiers in buildings are at a bit of a disadvantage, since sometimes only one or two are firing out of windows/doors against more firepower (more soldiers firing at the same time) from a similar sized unit outside the building.
Soldiers not close enough to the wall (inside the building) don't get L.o.S to fire.
So ... I've changed windows/doors for all buildings (except for bunkers) to not block Line of Sight.
This enable soldiers further inside the building to get L.o.S.
I thought there might be L.o.S. through the entire building with windows/doors coded this way ... but it is not the case.
I think this solves the problem of real walls not getting enough soldiers to fire (and not having reasonable L.o.S.)
Still needs more testing, but it seems to be working well

here is the file:

[diggin.robat]

Nice work, David. Always wondered about a proper solution to that classical CC issue.

Will test it soon.


cheers

Robert

[ErwinSp]

Very interesting, thanks.

[platoon_michael]

Do I understand correctly that with windows/doors for all buildings (except for bunkers) to not block Line of Sight that Soldiers can shoot out the house but vehicles/Soldiers outside can NOT shoot through the house?

And do you see any type of pecking order for the Soldiers that get first dibs on the windows/doors?

Based on Rank?
Based on type of weapon?
Or is it random?

I do not have a good understanding of the Elements file or how it works,I've never messed with it.

[davidssfx]

Hi,
here is a reply posted at Matrix:


I've always thought the most interesting component of CC is how infantry is simulated.
Although some of the abstractions seem clumsy ... I do understand and appreciate the ideas the current model represents.
The recent changes I've made in the Elements file (the ones you've mentioned getting used in GJS), and the changes listed here (regarding real walls) ... are a variance in the basic model of interpretation of what is concrete and what is abstract.
If a more concrete model is possible, without negatively affecting game play, then it stands to reason that it would be more realistic. If we first think in terms of real world applications of certain soldier aspects, and then abstract only the areas that can't be made concrete ... then it would seem, the real world has the best chance of being simulated.

I'll explain some things in order to make my point, as well as inform others who haven't been following this discussion.
As mentioned before, infantry inside of buildings automatically (and only) have top floor Line of Sight. So it seems the developers of CC have reasoned, that since soldiers are on the top floor ... they should be progressively slower moving through windows and doors as height of the floor level increases. This is accomplished by different "hindrance" values in the Elements file. Hindrance values are based on the time it takes to move through an element ... lower numbers equal easier (faster) transit through a specific element and higher numbers equal slower movement through. Note: it's also relative to the position of the soldier as he transits through the element ... low, medium, high.
For example: grass has a hindrance value of 10 for a soldier moving high, while barbed wire has a value of 90. Wood Window L1 is 80, Wood Window L2 is 180, etc.
This seems to make sense, but in TLD the Wood Wall is 30. Question: Which is going to be easier for a soldier to move through ... a window (80) or a wall (30)?
Using logic, it would seem that a wall is easier to move through than a window ... this doesn't make sense. If the walls in TLD were coded so that they couldn't pass through a wall element ... then it would make sense. As it is now, soldiers move through walls before windows, since they are smart enough to take the path of least resistance. For now let's not worry about the part that doesn't make sense, but just take in the method of how hindrance values affects soldiers movement.
A big problem with high hindrance level windows and doors for Level 2 (and above) floors is that soldiers moving through them sometimes get stuck there for long periods of time ... and thus get separated from their unit (which also sometimes causes the unit moving away to turn back to regroup).

Now let's jump to the topic of abstractions in this model.
The first: because a soldier has top floor Line of Sight ... he must enter/exit building from the floor level he has Line of Sight from. Now let's think about what soldiers do most of the time in real life ... they enter the building from the ground floor and move up/down floor levels via stairs and then exit via ground floor level. Since CC is not capable of simulating movement by stairways to various floor levels, then we have to make an abstraction here for sure. But I suggest that all building entry/exit is done by ground level ... and therefore, top floor Line of Sight is another abstraction we have to live with.
Ground level entry/exit is accomplished by coding all floor levels of window/door elements the same as ground level. For example: A Wood Wall is 30, a Wood Window 20, and Wood Door 10 (assuming door is open).
Therefore if we model our thinking to interpret soldiers entering/exiting buildings on ground level ... we are thinking in real world terms and have soldiers moving freely with their unit (for the most part) ... instead of being hung up in high hindrance level windows/doors. And as in real life it's easier to move through a door than a window, and easier to move through a window than a wall (will will look into the wall thing later).

But, now to the second major abstraction ... moving and seeing through walls. Again let's first go to the real world for our baseline of interpretation.
Soldiers can't move through walls or see through them.
So, in CC we can simulate this by coding Wall elements 0 (zero) ... which means "can not enter terrain". Now soldiers have to move through doors and windows only. This does create extra management for infantry units for the player though ... since way points are needed to navigate routes through connected buildings. But this again is real world logistics ... soldiers need to exit a building in order to enter the next one, and selecting the most appropriate side (considering cover and Line of Sight).
Blocking soldier movement through walls was a problem for soldier path finding until recently when the Matrix crew made it possible for a separated soldier to make his way back to his unit, after being separated.
Seeing through walls is another section of the Elements file ... and is defined with two variables. The first is: Can terrain block LOS? 0 = False, 1 = True, and the second is: Can terrain block LOS even when adjacent? 0 = False, 1 = True.
In the current CC model, Walls are coded "Can terrain block LOS? 1 = True", and "Can terrain block LOS even when adjacent? 0 = False".
Coded like this, walls will block Line of Sight, but if a soldier is next to a wall he will get Line of Sight through the element.
For the real walls modification (I've added to the previous hindrance changes), walls are coded to block Line of Sight even when soldiers are beside an element.
This is true to real world vision ... a soldier can't see through a wall even if he presses his face against it.

So now we have movement through and around buildings replicated in CC more true to concrete (real life) attributes ... however there is a slight problem with getting enough soldiers of a unit Line of Sight out of buildings, since most of the openings are small and units usually stay close together ... thus all trying to fire from the same opening.
In the current CC model, windows and doors are coded the same as walls with regard to vision ... they block Line of Sight, but not when directly beside.
In order to get more soldiers in a unit firing (with walls blocking all Line of Sight), I've changed window/door elements to not block any Line of Sight. Therefore soldiers further inside the building can gain Line of Sight. Similarly, soldiers/vehicles outside the building can also see further in.
This (for the most part) also reflects real world characteristics, since a soldier standing back inside can still see out an open door or window. This opens up more Line of Sight, but remember the walls now completely block all Line of Sight ... so there is some cover to be had, especially in there is interior walls coded in the building to retreat behind (if need be).
By cover (in this sense)I mean blocking of Line of Sight ... cover values for protection are in a different section of the elements file that dictate the amount of protection against incoming fire that an element provides.
An improvement suggestion for the developers would be to have the "Can terrain block LOS?" option be divided into low, medium, and high categories. This would enable soldiers to maintain cover behind windows when prone (and also block their Line of Sight too).

The end result of all of this is more realistic game play, at the expense of increased infantry management. But the extra management is really a bonus, because you are now thinking in more concrete strategic ideas. For example: my unit can't see through the end of this building with no windows ... so I'll have to wait for the enemy to pass by and ambush, or move to the next building that has windows/doors facing the area I want to target.
There is also more detailed spotting of enemy units ... for example: you can't see an enemy unit close to you if it's behind a wall with no window/door elements.

To see for yourself how this all works in game ... I suggest installing Ground Tactics 2.0 and replacing the Elements file with the one attached in the thread. Then go to the Merville Battery single battle and play as the German side. Use the units supplied and maybe remove one of the ATG/Guns.
Elements file is located here on your computer:
C:\Matrix Games\Close Combat The Longest Day\DATA\BASE
Note: it’s also interesting to see infantry moving through the bunkers using just doors and windows, and not getting stuck in the walls.

This way of interpreting the model and its new differences may not fit everyone's ideals, but I think it's worth a look anyway. []

[davidssfx]

oops, forgot about ground level buildings ... from outside a building you can fire through windows and doors to the opposite side outside.
Found a fix that will work with the other changes ... new file here:


and a side note about my last post ... cover and protection are addressed separately in the Elements file ... my error for clumping them together.

Also, a possible error in the TLD Elements file (even in new patch) ... Stone Window has a height of element of 16, but most other windows, etc. are height of 8.

edit ... decided to go back a couple versions, and just have no move through or see through walls. Now just have original windows that block Line of Sight, but L.o.S. when adjacent. It seems that with windows/doors with no L.o.S. blocked you get lots of green Line of Sight, but kind of the same number of guys firing because they still can't all see. Even with see/move through walls ... not all fire. t's basically the same either way ... so no need to change this part after all.
I also noticed soldiers getting completely separated in warehouses at Columb... map. There is only a couple/few doors/windows and unless you micro manage units in warehouses with real walls ... things get messed up a bit.

[davidssfx]

[Manoi]

Good work. The block of los for interior walls seems to be a good compromise to simulate a good protection for soldiers in buildings. The fact that a squad in a house can be wiped  out trough 2 walls by a mg42 or by a tank has always disturbed me. I think to apply this to the new stalingrad element file. As in the first version, I don't think I will code the windows and the doors of the exterior walls. One think that I find strange in LSA is the fact that ground floor exterior doors are coded in L2 or L3 houses!!!

[ErwinSp]

Very interesting. One question to consider is the  graphic engine is limited and can be modified but not redesigned.

Thx for the info.

Manoi that Stalingrad Mod for new CC sure it is a last!!

[buuface]

David thank you very much for converting this file to LSA format.

Thread in matrix regarding ongoing community patch\mod for LSA by Tigercub and priapus

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2847199

[schrecken]

LSA RealWalls available for download

http://closecombat.matrixgames.com/LSA/LSAmods.html

[thumb]

Not seeing a link to LSA RealWalls on the LSA Maps, Mods & Tools page.

[schrecken]

Refresh your browser

;)

[davidssfx]

[schrecken]

updated with version 1.1 data and readme

[davidssfx]

[schrecken]

1.2 now up

LOL

[davidssfx]