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Blackstump

Rep: 24.5
votes: 1


PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:17 am Post subject: Norway Massacre Reply with quote

What a tragedy. Just trying to understand his reasoning, (if there's any) we are getting confusing reports over here on the other side of the world.
Hes anti-Islamic, so he shoots his own country men ?
He belong to the right wing political party at one stage, but quit?
Is the Norwegian Parliament in favour of pro Islamic immigration?
Targeting young adults trapped on an island shows premeditation, but why was the response so slow?
A 1500 page manifesto?
The picture of him with the "Christmas tree assault rifle" shows there may be a problem....
We had our Port Arthur Massacre over here and these  SLR's were band.
At the time there was a lot of dissent (me included).
But no hunter can argue the need of semi-auto rifles.
I know that now only the criminals and cops have them, but that suits me.
My condolences to all Norwegians.


"percute et percute velociter"
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pvt_Grunt

Rep: 50.3
votes: 5


PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:31 am Post subject: Re: Norway Massacre Reply with quote

Blackstump wrote (View Post):
Hes anti-Islamic, so he shoots his own country men ?.


From what I read he has targeted a political party he believes were pro-immigration.

Blackstump wrote (View Post):
My condolences to all Norwegians.


Yes - seconded. Every country has it's madmen, it is no reflection on the rest of the country.
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7A_Woulf

Rep: 22.1
votes: 2


PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:37 am Post subject: Re: Norway Massacre Reply with quote

Well, well, sad thing.

I live in Sweden, but this is just "next-door". He was still shooting when our terrorist-experts sat in national TV and pointed the finger at Islamic fundamentalists: "this dual-attack have the 'trademark' of Al Quaida". But honestly my first thought was that it must be some kind of right-wing fanatic, I mean; why should a Islamic fanatic attack the 'AUF' summer camp? 'AUF' is the youth organisation of the Norwegian social democrat party, and excuse my for being ignorant and narrow minded now; but isn't that the ruling party of Norway?

I'm not sure about the Norwegian laws regarding semi automatic weapons, but I think they are almost the same as ours: totally banned!
Sadly they are fairly easy to get over anyway.  Sad

I think Norway have the same system of Territorial Army as we have, placing SLR's in the homes of thousands of men, and here we have had a 're-organisation' placing the latest Swedish 'AK5' at their houses instead. Of course there's rules and regulations about the storage of these weapons and they are not allowed to keep live ammo for them, but never the less the weapons get stolen from time to time and standard NATO ammo isn't hard to get. It's a fine balance act to keep the safety of the country in comparison to the safety of the citizens...


"When the tough gets going, I run to live to run another day..."

"Is this trip really necessary?"
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pvt_Grunt

Rep: 50.3
votes: 5


PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Norway Massacre Reply with quote

Blackstump wrote (View Post):
We had our Port Arthur Massacre over here and these  SLR's were band.
At the time there was a lot of dissent (me included).
But no hunter can argue the need of semi-auto rifles.
I know that now only the criminals and cops have them, but that suits me.


Gun control - dangerous territory on a forum but what the hell............

Not just SLR are banned, all semi automatics. (I guess you mean SLR and semi auto are the same thing, just an Aussie vs American term?)

Since then there have been no (fingers crossed) mass killings here. Does this mean the problem is solved? Of course not. There are still lots of guns out there and any day there could be another madman with one.
The usual argument is  - if only someone had a gun to kill the shooter. Therefore if everyone had a gun ther would be less killings right, after all there are NO mass killings in a firing range right?
But, I am not aware of any cases where a citizen has produced a gun and prevented a mass killing, and even if it had, how do you know how many lives were saved?

Gun laws cannot stop every instance of crime, they can only reduce the chance that you may become a victim.

I once had an "argument" with a friend from Oregon - he said "Most gun crime is drug dealers shooting each other, so I'm not afraid" That really changed my mind.
We are really talking about 2 different crimes - crims shooting crims, and madmen shooting innocents, and the gun laws can only REDUCE one of these.

Flame On Brothers..... Twisted Evil
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Therion

Rep: 27.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:13 am Post subject: Re: Norway Massacre Reply with quote

pvt_Grunt wrote (View Post):
Since then there have been no (fingers crossed) mass killings here. Does this mean the problem is solved? Of course not. There are still lots of guns out there and any day there could be another madman with one.
The usual argument is  - if only someone had a gun to kill the shooter. Therefore if everyone had a gun ther would be less killings right, after all there are NO mass killings in a firing range right?
But, I am not aware of any cases where a citizen has produced a gun and prevented a mass killing, and even if it had, how do you know how many lives were saved?

You're not aware of such cases because in all high profile shootings the shooters were shooting defenceless people. That's simple. No cops. No armed people were present. They deliberately target places that don't allow carrying guns.

Here's an example of a shooting stopped by armed students:
http://freestudents.blogspot.com/2007/04/when-mass-killers-meet-armed-resistance.html
 
Also, I don't know why people call him a mad man. Having different political views doesn't mean that he is mad. Killing people also isn't a sign of madness.
He'd have to have hallucinations, hear voices, etc. to be mad.
That tendency to call criminals and terrorists mad is pretty annoying. For example the worst Nazi war criminals were examined by psychiatrists and it turned out that most of them is mentally healthy.

pvt_Grunt wrote (View Post):
Gun laws cannot stop every instance of crime, they can only reduce the chance that you may become a victim.

Gun control wouldn't help against that guy as there wouldn't be any arguments against giving him a gun permit.


Wonderland - my mod for Armored Brigade

Killing for peace is like fucking for orgasm.
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AT_Stalky

Rep: 27.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: Norway Massacre Reply with quote

7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):
I'm not sure about the Norwegian laws regarding semi automatic weapons, but I think they are almost the same as ours: totally banned!
Sadly they are fairly easy to get over anyway.  Sad

He had Licence for his weapons, 3 of em. Semi auto is leagal.  

7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):
I think Norway have the same system of Territorial Army as we have, placing SLR's in the homes of thousands of men, and here we have had a 're-organisation' placing the latest Swedish 'AK5' at their houses instead. Of course there's rules and regulations about the storage of these weapons and they are not allowed to keep live ammo for them, but never the less the weapons get stolen from time to time and standard NATO ammo isn't hard to get. It's a fine balance act to keep the safety of the country in comparison to the safety of the citizens...

He used his own weapons he had license for, no Army weapon nor stolen weapons etc.
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AT_Stalky

Rep: 27.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: Norway Massacre Reply with quote

Blackstump wrote (View Post):
Hes anti-Islamic, so he shoots his own country men ?

Yes, that’s right. If he target Muslims, the sympathy for them would increase. So it would not be in his interest. He target what he see as the problem, that is the political party’s that allows the Muslim immigration, and the Muslims in them self is just the symptom.  

Blackstump wrote (View Post):
He belong to the right wing political party at one stage, but quit?

Yes, that’s right. He was a youth member of the Fremskrittspartiet, a party that want less immigration. He was member from 1997 – 2007. He was chairman for a short time in a local Oslo Vest. There after he was board member up to 2004. He left the party in 2007, believing they was not radical enough.  

Blackstump wrote (View Post):
Is the Norwegian Parliament in favour of pro Islamic immigration?

Yes they are. Thats what it was mainly about.

Blackstump wrote (View Post):
Targeting young adults trapped on an island shows premeditation,


He started this plan in 2002. Thats 9 years of planing.

Blackstump wrote (View Post):
but why was the [Police] response so slow?

Police first version: At 18:35 he put down the guns and gave up to the police. At 17:02 the first call came in to the police. Giving him almost 100 minutes to shoot the ppl on the island.
The Oslo police say it took 36 minutes before the local police relayed the information to them (the local police deny this and I believe we are going to see an investigation about this).
Second(?) version: the call came at 17:27… Problems, using a shopper were not an option as it was to far away from Oslo (about 70km drive). Instead they went by car from Oslo to the shore, apx 40km…. tick tack.. And at the shore they had to get hold of a boat. And when they used the boat the engine failed. Delaying them yet another 10 more minutes. They got hold of new boat(s) and continued.


Blackstump wrote (View Post):
A 1500 page manifesto?

Yes, This action, bombing the government and then target the socialist youth organisation was propaganda/marketing for this manifest.


Blackstump wrote (View Post):
The picture of him with the "Christmas tree assault rifle" shows there may be a problem....

There are several pictures he published of him self. And its well thought out, the image you talk are probably meant to show him in action. These images will live forever..... And its how he whant to be rememberd by the world... (stark contract to the police mug-shot we would see othervice) Several other images show him in a uniform, (though he never been in the army) with his own medals and ranks (medals and ranks intended also to be used of the followers of his ideology).

/S


Last edited by AT_Stalky on Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:50 pm; edited 2 times in total
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7A_Woulf

Rep: 22.1
votes: 2


PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:29 pm Post subject: Re: Norway Massacre Reply with quote

As I said; -I wasn't sure.

EDIT: Sorry for saying anything, I better leave the forum for the elite...


"When the tough gets going, I run to live to run another day..."

"Is this trip really necessary?"


Last edited by 7A_Woulf on Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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AT_Stalky

Rep: 27.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: Norway Massacre Reply with quote

There was a police on the island. He was of-duty, and working extra as a guard on the camp. (This makes me doubt that he carried any weapons.) The police/guard was one of the many victims.


Last edited by AT_Stalky on Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kawasaky

Rep: 22.2
votes: 5


PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: Norway Massacre Reply with quote

Sympathies to the Norwegians.
The killer is a very sick person and should be denied any publicity and be kept drugged as a stone for the rest of his life in hi-security mental institution.
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dj

Rep: 56.5
votes: 5


PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:36 am Post subject: Re: Norway Massacre Reply with quote

Yes that is unfortunate Norway has become victim of a yet another homegrown right-wing extremist attack.  Here in America, we had even worse right-wing nut that killed 168 innocent people.  Tim McVeigh had similar anti-government views and bombed one of our federal buildings.  

Too many nutcases roaming the streets incited to commit acts of terror and violence against their own people.  America, Norway...I think Germany is having some problems with right-wing nuts and Poland also.


What will the Revolution Change? - Youth Brigade
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Therion

Rep: 27.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:19 am Post subject: Re: Norway Massacre Reply with quote

AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):
He was a youth member of the Fremskrittspartiet, a party that want less immigration. He was member from 1997 – 2007

AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):
socialist youth organisation

I don't understand one thing. Why is there a youth organization for a party? Why are politicians recruiting children and teenagers (which don't have life experience to judge which policies are right or wrong) for their cause?

Political struggles are inherently violent (all the policies are forced upon the people with threats of violence) and it's logical that anyone that takes part in it is in danger of retaliation. Why involve kids and teenagers in it?
They should be limited to taking part in a school parliament, volunteering, creating hobby clubs, not be brainwashed into some weird ideologies.

Practically every young politically active person that I've met had some seriously fucked up extreme worldviews - multicultural commies, lollertarians, separatists, fascists, etc. that were taught by some fucked up organization. And they were screaming the same slogans and arguments taught to them by political pamphlets and indoctrinators and unmoderated by life experience and compassion.
I mean, for example I met tens of young lefties from different countries using the same arguments, the same posting style, like they weren't individuals but copies of the same person.
I have never met a moderate politically involved youth.

Maybe they should keep kids and teens out this? Because I have to say that the only reason why this has happened is that some power mongering politicians have recruited kids for their cause and other power mongering politicians have recruited that guy as a kid.


Wonderland - my mod for Armored Brigade

Killing for peace is like fucking for orgasm.
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AT_Stalky

Rep: 27.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:45 am Post subject: Re: Norway Massacre Reply with quote

Therion wrote (View Post):
I don't understand one thing. Why is there a youth organization for a party? Why are politicians recruiting children and teenagers (which don't have life experience to judge which policies are right or wrong) for their cause?


The medium age of the youth on the island was 16 years (according to a media source). The youngest 14, up to 30 something.  

I belive as Therion, that the black and white world view is more profound in youth and they are more radical then the mother party. The students and young are also often in the frontline in protests and “revolts”. But the youth with polar views are probably in the extreme parties to the left and to the right side of the political life.

However, I do believe this social democrat youth party that was targeted is rather benign holding democratic and very high level of human rights/equality ideas.

The question if youth should be allowed to be in political parties is interesting. We can vote from age 18, but we can be members of political parties from earlier age. But membership or not, politically activity is not confined into fixed youth organisations. They exist from the moment someone is politically aware.  
The individual starts there political awareness at different ages, some remain totally ignorant for there whole life. Politically ignorant ppl are as much or more of a problem then ppl that informs them self and educate em self about politics and the system.
The politically ignorant ppl are also the “one issue voters” and as such they easy hoarded. But they ofcose don’t see em self as such, the one only political question they focus on (gay marriage, weapon laws, abortion, immigration, or low price on petrol etc) is the only interesting and important thing that politics should do something about...  


The political climate here is fine, democracy working at it best. We can debate if the sick should have less benefits, we can debate if the unemployed should get less benefits, we can debate how little pension our old should have, we can debate how extremely little help the oldest age ppl should have at the end of there life. We can sure debate how extremely little the weakest in society should have, even letting our native ppl live on the streets its cost efficient. And not only are we allowed to debate this, we have for the last 6 years seen all the a bow social securities being dismantled and lowered at the same phase as we give them who have the most, yet another tax relief.  
But you may be surprised, here in our democratic society it’s not allowed to debate the immigration, and it been so for a decade now.
Anyone who suggest that we should allow one less immigrant a year is doomed and ladled a murdering nazy and a right wing extremist. The person’s political future is gone in a second, his work life will be affected, and socially he’s an outcast.
The question I ask my self especially after this shooting, Is this reasonable? Surely every party must have as many views on immigration as they have members? One less, one more, two less, three more, half the present quota, double the present quota of immigrants? But, we are not allowed to debate it… This arguably must have built up a frustration in moderate ppl who want to debate the immigration. The ppl who have feelings/opinions about the immigration may well end up in the extreme camps, where other extreme ideas and method are debated and may well form there political views..

Wouldn’t it be better to allow the immigration debate within the political systems and media.  Letting the parliament and parties debate this question in the same way they debate all other questions?
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Blackstump

Rep: 24.5
votes: 1


PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:32 am Post subject: Re: Norway Massacre Reply with quote

Stalky if you moved to Australia and were my neighbour, the only thing different you would notice was that it was unusually hot.
Your description of your political situation is also ours.. exactly.
Even your opinions, are the same as a lot of us.
Unfortunately being a sovereign nation and free also means we must except a certain amount of refugee/immigration. (as determined by the free community of nations at large)
Moderate debate seems to have been taken out of the 'peoples hands' in this choice.


"percute et percute velociter"
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pvt_Grunt

Rep: 50.3
votes: 5


PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:20 am Post subject: Re: Norway Massacre Reply with quote

That is the nature of "Negative politics". In order to win votes you need to attack the opposition / government of the day, and the best way is to take their policy and extrapolate it to the farthest extreme possible.
For instance, if a politician says "Immigration is good for our country" the other party replies with "So you want us to become a muslim nation with Sharia law?"
This plays to more people (read - more votes) than a reply like "Yes immigration is OK, but I would like 1 or 2 less this year please" (Which is also a really shitty headline in the paper)
And so the media and the politicians play the game and too many people believe it.
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Therion

Rep: 27.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:12 pm Post subject: Re: Norway Massacre Reply with quote

AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):
Therion wrote (View Post):
I don't understand one thing. Why is there a youth organization for a party? Why are politicians recruiting children and teenagers (which don't have life experience to judge which policies are right or wrong) for their cause?


The medium age of the youth on the island was 16 years (according to a media source). The youngest 14, up to 30 something.  

I belive as Therion, that the black and white world view is more profound in youth and they are more radical then the mother party. The students and young are also often in the frontline in protests and “revolts”. But the youth with polar views are probably in the extreme parties to the left and to the right side of the political life.

However, I do believe this social democrat youth party that was targeted is rather benign holding democratic and very high level of human rights/equality ideas.

The question if youth should be allowed to be in political parties is interesting. We can vote from age 18, but we can be members of political parties from earlier age. But membership or not, politically activity is not confined into fixed youth organisations. They exist from the moment someone is politically aware.  
The individual starts there political awareness at different ages, some remain totally ignorant for there whole life. Politically ignorant ppl are as much or more of a problem then ppl that informs them self and educate em self about politics and the system.

There's a difference between political awareness and political activism. And there's a difference from forming their own opinions based on their own experience and neutral sources and political indoctrination.

Here in Poland, one conservative party got completely destroyed politically because they had a youth group. While the actions and words of the party were pretty moderate, their youth organization was full of retarded skinheads and football hooligans.

For example:
Homosexualists wanted a public parade.
Party stance: We don't want promotion of homosexualism in public and homosexual marriage (stance of all parties except post-communist party)
Stance of the party youth organization: GAS ALL FAGGOTS!!!

That's how they slipped into political non-existence.

AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):
The political climate here is fine, democracy working at it best. We can debate if the sick should have less benefits, we can debate if the unemployed should get less benefits, we can debate how little pension our old should have, we can debate how extremely little help the oldest age ppl should have at the end of there life. We can sure debate how extremely little the weakest in society should have, even letting our native ppl live on the streets its cost efficient. And not only are we allowed to debate this, we have for the last 6 years seen all the a bow social securities being dismantled and lowered at the same phase as we give them who have the most, yet another tax relief.  
But you may be surprised, here in our democratic society it’s not allowed to debate the immigration, and it been so for a decade now.
Anyone who suggest that we should allow one less immigrant a year is doomed and ladled a murdering nazy and a right wing extremist. The person’s political future is gone in a second, his work life will be affected, and socially he’s an outcast.
The question I ask my self especially after this shooting, Is this reasonable? Surely every party must have as many views on immigration as they have members? One less, one more, two less, three more, half the present quota, double the present quota of immigrants? But, we are not allowed to debate it… This arguably must have built up a frustration in moderate ppl who want to debate the immigration. The ppl who have feelings/opinions about the immigration may well end up in the extreme camps, where other extreme ideas and method are debated and may well form there political views..

Wouldn’t it be better to allow the immigration debate within the political systems and media.  Letting the parliament and parties debate this question in the same way they debate all other questions?

Oh. It sounds horrible. It's surprising that stuff like this can happen in a democratic society O_o . Now I'm not surprised that some finally chose to use violence to solve that problem.

BTW. some guy burned himself alive to protest the uncontrolled immigration a few weeks ago. It seems that it didn't provoke any discussion.
I remember someone ironically saying that he should have killed other people not himself. It's so true...
I guess sometimes the only way to get people thinking is to start shooting them. The same was with bullying and intolerance in schools.


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wood

Rep: 1.3
votes: 1


PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: Norway Massacre Reply with quote

A rightwing extrememist wanted to hurt the leftside of politics in Norway, so he went after the Labour party's youth. Who held their annual summer camp at Utoya.
For those interested ill post a link with how he moved on the island.

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/slik-skjedde-angrepene.php
 
The yellow line follow his path.
Most victims were found at "Hovedhuset", "Kafebygget", "Teltplassen" and 3 places near the waterline police also found bodies.
In times like this i hate that Norway doesnt have the death penalty because i dont want this man to waste anymore O2 than he already did.
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AT_Stalky

Rep: 27.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:54 pm Post subject: Re: Norway Massacre Reply with quote

Therion wrote (View Post):
Here in Poland, one conservative party got completely destroyed politically because they had a youth group. While the actions and words of the party were pretty moderate, their youth organization was full of retarded skinheads and football hooligans.


I believe that’s a matter of causality.
Do you believe the youth was turned into football hooligan and skinheads by that conservative political organization? Was those youth innocent doves, like white unwritten papers until they entered that organization?
Or was they already football hooligans and skinheads as they entered that organization?

I believe all human interactions will cause a degree of push and pull on each other. Some will be more pulled, while some others will cause more push on there surroundings. Its leaders and followers in a dynamic relation.
Im not sure, but I do believe most ppl that enter an organization already holds similar values and thoughts as the organization they enter. There must be an attraction, or the person would not even be interested in that organization in first place.  A left wing socialist person would hardly enter a right wing extreme organization, a person holding liberal views would hardly enter a communist organization. A democratic secular person would hardly enter a religious motivated political organization etc..
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dj

Rep: 56.5
votes: 5


PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:09 am Post subject: Re: Norway Massacre Reply with quote

It seems the international spread of right-wing extremists is worse than anyone realized.  For decades the left somewhat dominated especially in the 60's and 70's.  Now the right-wing extremists have become far more violent and dangerous than any leftist organization.

Here in America the right-wing extremists exploit the typical views held by racists to promote xenophobia and blame immigrants for everything.  We have a very long history of violence towards immigrants in our past.  Americans were particularly cruel to Irish Catholics, Chinese laborers and others that were made scapegoats or convenient political targets.  These hoodlums recruit the mentally deranged, insane, poorly educated - if educated at all or others that are easily indoctrinated.  Yes the youth are very much targeted as recruits.  The Norwegian terrorist indeed to no surprise was found to be mentally insane.  Currently the immigrants targeted by these radical activists are the Mexicans and Muslims.  

I witnessed these types of hoodlums attempt to attack my friends with baseball bats when I was 15 years old.  The only reason why is because 2 of my friends were African American (twins) and one was Japanese American.  But I think the only reason they tried to attack us was simply because they disliked Black people.  We were just kids but they wanted to attack us any way.  It is the sign of a madman to take out their anger management issues on a immigrant or minority.  Talk to your politicians but don't hate someone for their colour of their skin or culture.  We are all just people with the same basic goals in life, no matter what the race or religion.


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MajorFrank

Rep: 27.5
votes: 4


PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:31 am Post subject: Re: Norway Massacre Reply with quote

This was a crazy individual who did this, although the psychologists are saying that he might not be crazy, just evil. Whatever that means. I hope he's locked up for the rest of his days.

Many of these extremists want to attack the moderates who they see as an enemy. Well the way I see it this attacker failed and Norway will only strengthen it's democracy and this is something that many countries (USA included) could learn from.

edit. Some people have said that there should be more guns in the societies of Norway and other countries. I don't see Norwegians going for more guns in society because of this, actually I think it will be less guns.
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