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Therion

Rep: 27.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:44 pm Post subject: Effectiveness of fire in combat? Reply with quote

Does anyone know any stats beyond the ones about thousands of rounds being used per kill?
I've seen only this:

Quote:
In August 1989 the Army and the Air Force began testing the first of four prototypes of rifles to assess whether improvements in rifle design and technology warranted replacing the M16A2 rifle. The Army wanted a rifle that would significantly improve the average soldier's ability to hit the target under battlefield conditions, or at least to double the number of hits per trigger pull. With the M16A2 the probability of a battlefield hit is 20 percent at 100 meters, 10 percent at 300 meters, and 5 percent at 600 meters.


Wonderland - my mod for Armored Brigade

Killing for peace is like fucking for orgasm.
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MajorFrank

Rep: 41.8
votes: 6


PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: Effectiveness of fire in combat? Reply with quote

Well the M-16 uses the 5,56 round which is supposed to be more accurate then, for example, the 7,62 (AK) round in longer distances. The 7,62 does more damage when it hits. I don't think I buy that "5% chance of hit from 600 meters". Well, if it's a really big target, maybe.
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Therion

Rep: 27.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: Effectiveness of fire in combat? Reply with quote

MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
Well the M-16 uses the 5,56 round which is supposed to be more accurate then, for example, the 7,62 (AK) round in longer distances. The 7,62 does more damage when it hits. I don't think I buy that "5% chance of hit from 600 meters". Well, if it's a really big target, maybe.

AFAIK it's possible to regularly hit on that range on shooting range. On battlefield occasions to fire 20 shots/bursts to get that one hit at a target 600 meters away are pretty rare.


Wonderland - my mod for Armored Brigade

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0202243

Rep: 50.9


PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: Effectiveness of fire in combat? Reply with quote

MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
Well the M-16 uses the 5,56 round which is supposed to be more accurate then, for example, the 7,62 (AK) round in longer distances. The 7,62 does more damage when it hits. I don't think I buy that "5% chance of hit from 600 meters". Well, if it's a really big target, maybe.


i thought the 5.56 did more damage because of the ricochet inside the body. It only has less penetration power than a 7.62, which went mostly straight through the target.


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MajorFrank

Rep: 41.8
votes: 6


PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:00 pm Post subject: Re: Effectiveness of fire in combat? Reply with quote

0202243 wrote (View Post):
MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
Well the M-16 uses the 5,56 round which is supposed to be more accurate then, for example, the 7,62 (AK) round in longer distances. The 7,62 does more damage when it hits. I don't think I buy that "5% chance of hit from 600 meters". Well, if it's a really big target, maybe.


i thought the 5.56 did more damage because of the ricochet inside the body. It only has less penetration power than a 7.62, which went mostly straight through the target.


Yea well people are free to think what they want. Wanna convince me? Show me the impartial studies. The net is full of debates about this issue.

Actually I'm not 100% sure that 5,56 has a longer range then the 7,62, it might actually be the other way around.
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Blackstump

Rep: 24.5
votes: 1


PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:23 am Post subject: Re: Effectiveness of fire in combat? Reply with quote

Both the M16 and AK47 are assault carbine SLR's. Carbine denotes length of barrel = short. For ease of handling/weight.
Both are accurate at 100 yards (Killing zone grouping).
M16 with battlescope, 5% at 600 yards in a static sandbagged position is feasible.
AK47 over iron sights at 600 yards....(i will have a beer on that one)
The preferred rifle option for sniper/target shooter for last 90 years has been around the .308 calibre.
Both weapons perform as they are intended, 0 to 300 yards very well.
Burst firing accurately, is best left to mg's with lock down device's and recoil potential to avoid barrel slap.
Accuracy for a rifle is best described like this, delivery system 10%, barrel length/rifling 40%, projectile/charge 40%, sighting 10%.
The argument over the most destructive calibre rages. A high speed light bullet at short range will cause more static shock. (think of droping a stone in to a pond, then thow it down as hard as you can, the bigger splash? well we are mostly water, thats static shock).
The larger round is more accurate over distance.
Thats why the army sniper is now using .50 calibre rifles.
You dont really need to group or hit the killzone with a .50


"percute et percute velociter"
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:06 am Post subject: Re: Effectiveness of fire in combat? Reply with quote

Quote:
Does anyone know any stats beyond the ones about thousands of rounds being used per kill?

Therion, generally, in combat soldiers don't shoot at enemies, they shoot toward enemy - thus huge amount of ammunition spent to score a hit.

Quote:
i thought the 5.56 did more damage because of the ricochet inside the body.

7.62x33 (AK47 round) ricochets off bones inside the body same well.

Quote:
Yea well people are free to think what they want. Wanna convince me? Show me the impartial studies. The net is full of debates about this issue.

From the Soviet comparison of 5,56mm "Remington" and 7,62mm M43, it appeared that effect (width of wound channel) of 5,56mm bullet, hiting target at 885m/s speed, at first 5-7,5cm is lower than effect of 7,62mm M43 bullet by around 13%, due to stability of bullet. But after bullet starts shattering and turns around, 5,56mm round is 2,2-3,5 times more effective. During further tests they figured that same effect could be achieved with lower bullet speeds and the conclusion was made that 5,6mm bullets could be same effective as 7,62mm M43 bullets, so they switched to 5,45mm (which is really 5,6mm if measured by NATO standards).

Quote:
Actually I'm not 100% sure that 5,56 has a longer range then the 7,62, it might actually be the other way around.

AKM has a range of direct shot (height of target - 0,5m) - 350m.
AK74 has a range of direct shot (height of target - 0,5m) - 440m.
M16 has a range of direct shot (height of target - 0,5m) - 426m.
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Therion

Rep: 27.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:38 pm Post subject: Re: Effectiveness of fire in combat? Reply with quote

Dima wrote (View Post):
Quote:
Does anyone know any stats beyond the ones about thousands of rounds being used per kill?

Therion, generally, in combat soldiers don't shoot at enemies, they shoot toward enemy - thus huge amount of ammunition spent to score a hit.

I've read accounts of US soldiers regularly shooting at enemies in Black Hawk Down and in Ambush Alley. It was in a close range combat, though.


Wonderland - my mod for Armored Brigade

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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:12 pm Post subject: Re: Effectiveness of fire in combat? Reply with quote

Quote:
I've read accounts of US soldiers regularly shooting at enemies in Black Hawk Down and in Ambush Alley. It was in a close range combat, though.

of cause they did, or at least they thought they did, but did they hit with each burst even at 100m?
but if we take, say, snipers, they do shoot at enemies and score hits.
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Therion

Rep: 27.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: Effectiveness of fire in combat? Reply with quote

Dima wrote (View Post):
Quote:
I've read accounts of US soldiers regularly shooting at enemies in Black Hawk Down and in Ambush Alley. It was in a close range combat, though.

of cause they did, or at least they thought they did, but did they hit with each burst even at 100m?
but if we take, say, snipers, they do shoot at enemies and score hits.

It was about 1-10 shots/bursts to hit. It would be pretty close to the stats that I posted in the first post, at least under 100m.

I made this topic because in Armored Brigade, there's conspicuously low accuracy on low range. I made these posts on AB forum and I'm looking for more data.

http://www.armoredbrigade.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1157#p1157

http://www.armoredbrigade.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1162#p1162

http://www.armoredbrigade.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1325#p1325


Wonderland - my mod for Armored Brigade

Killing for peace is like fucking for orgasm.
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:17 pm Post subject: Re: Effectiveness of fire in combat? Reply with quote

Quote:
I made this topic because in Armored Brigade, there's conspicuously low accuracy on low range. I made these posts on AB forum and I'm looking for more data.

first of all, thanx for sharing the game - looks good.
yea, at both 50m and 19m without cover it looks kinda weird Smile.

but don't believe that single 40mm round would destroy gun pit made in sand bags Wink.
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Therion

Rep: 27.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:35 pm Post subject: Re: Effectiveness of fire in combat? Reply with quote

Dima wrote (View Post):
yea, at both 50m and 19m without cover it looks kinda weird Smile.

Yeah. Too bad I can't convince the dev to do something about it. He says that people were criticising earlier versions of the game for too high casualties.

Dima wrote (View Post):
but don't believe that single 40mm round would destroy gun pit made in sand bags Wink.

IIRC it ignited ammo stored there or something like that. Also, that gun pit was in a building and they hit a bit under it.


Wonderland - my mod for Armored Brigade

Killing for peace is like fucking for orgasm.
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Blackstump

Rep: 24.5
votes: 1


PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Effectiveness of fire in combat? Reply with quote

To appreciate a burst fire with a shoulder mounted rifle. Get a friend with a basket ball to run 100 yards/metres (about the length of a football field) away and hold it above his head while you have a look at it over open sights. (that's your kill zone)
Then get him to run back 5 times that distance. Back 600 yards/metres and have a look, you will see that accurate burst fire from auto/semi would be difficult
Even at 100 yards second round would be difficult to hold on target. This can be done. In a prone position, but on the move.... basically your just spraying bullets in general direction


"percute et percute velociter"
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kawasaky

Rep: 22.2
votes: 5


PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: Effectiveness of fire in combat? Reply with quote

Is this purely academs/tecnical discussion, or reality talk?

Because in reality it is [generally] pointless to engage in the firefight at ranges above 250 meters.

1) If you are conducting an ambush you will want to spring your trap at the handgrenade range.
2) If you are defending your fire opening distance will depend on the type of attack being carried out, but long range fire will serve only as the suppressing tool, not the precision blow dealer.
3) If you are attacking any hits you might score above 100-150 m serve to no purpose because you will not be able to exploit them (make a breakthrough) before the opponent adjust his deployment.

a) A lot of things are possible on the firing range.
b) Things possible on the firing range tend to become impossible in the actual combat, when that target is shooting back at you.
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: Effectiveness of fire in combat? Reply with quote

Quote:
IIRC it ignited ammo stored there or something like that. Also, that gun pit was in a building and they hit a bit under it.

neither 40mm HEAT nor HE would penetrate either sandbags or concrete/brick wall Smile.
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Therion

Rep: 27.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:26 pm Post subject: Re: Effectiveness of fire in combat? Reply with quote

kawasaky wrote (View Post):
Is this purely academs/tecnical discussion, or reality talk?

A reality talk.

kawasaky wrote (View Post):
Because in reality it is [generally] pointless to engage in the firefight at ranges above 250 meters.

1) If you are conducting an ambush you will want to spring your trap at the handgrenade range.
2) If you are defending your fire opening distance will depend on the type of attack being carried out, but long range fire will serve only as the suppressing tool, not the precision blow dealer.
3) If you are attacking any hits you might score above 100-150 m serve to no purpose because you will not be able to exploit them (make a breakthrough) before the opponent adjust his deployment.

Here's what the problem is:
In game a unsuppressed infantry unit needs to use up ~100 rounds to per single kill on a target without cover that doesn't shoot back on ranges from 20-100m.
At the same time attacking infantry can destroy entrenched enemies with small arms fire from 450-300m and actually has no targets left when 300m away (like in 2 companies attacking one entrenched company and defending company getting flattened before them approach at distance of 300m with no need of close assault.).

kawasaky wrote (View Post):
a) A lot of things are possible on the firing range.
b) Things possible on the firing range tend to become impossible in the actual combat, when that target is shooting back at you.

I was just saying that shooting range accuracy of let's say 50% at firing range translating to 5% on battlefield isn't impossible.
Especially if you'll take into account that you'll probably never have a chance for a second shot if the target will dive for cover, so it's no practical chance to hit.

Dima wrote (View Post):
Quote:
IIRC it ignited ammo stored there or something like that. Also, that gun pit was in a building and they hit a bit under it.

neither 40mm HEAT nor HE would penetrate either sandbags or concrete/brick wall Smile.

Apparently individual 40mm HEDP can penetrate 6-8 inches of brick wall/20 inches of sandbags. Also, take in account that it was Iraq. They could have used thinner walls and only one layer of sandbags or something like that.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-06-11/ch7.htm


Wonderland - my mod for Armored Brigade

Killing for peace is like fucking for orgasm.
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:14 am Post subject: Re: Effectiveness of fire in combat? Reply with quote

Quote:
Apparently individual 40mm HEDP can penetrate 6-8 inches of brick wall/20 inches of sandbags. Also, take in account that it was Iraq. They could have used thinner walls and only one layer of sandbags or something like that.

yeah, theoretically, and at 90 deg angle Smile.
now picture what angle would a 40mm rounds have hitting targets from a vehicle Wink.

and, that's not old 280mm PzF, that had up to 140mm hole, but modern concentrated 40mm that will do like 5mm hole at max Smile.
there is famous phootage where RPG-7 rocket penetrated Abrams from side to side w/o injuring the crew...
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Therion

Rep: 27.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:51 am Post subject: Re: Effectiveness of fire in combat? Reply with quote

What do you guys think about realism effectiveness of fire in Operation Flashpoint? Hitting is pretty difficult unless one knows how to shot but even with accuracy of ~10%-20% combat is extremely lethal on open spaces.


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Nacrox

Rep: 5.5


PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:27 pm Post subject: Re: Effectiveness of fire in combat? Reply with quote

Operation Flashpoint 1 or OFP DR?

Because if you refer to the ARMA/OFP series, then the accuracy is a little too much good for a combat situation, the problem of the series is that the terrain is too much flat and there isn't really cover for it, so to make it balanced, the AI can engage from really long distances, and you can aim with ironsights that add a little of zoom to aim better as the AI does. (this is playing with mods that make the AI engage longer, like WGL)

And if you refer to the OFP DR series, i will not say anything about it  Rolling Eyes

I prefer the combat efectiveness of Red Orchestra Osfront, there you can't really aim to a target a 300m because the fire of the enemy makes you to fire without fixing your ironsights in the target effectivelly.

@Dima, omfg, it was an PG-7 round or an PG-7VR round?
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: Effectiveness of fire in combat? Reply with quote

Yes, they think it was PG-7VR.

Here is one of the articles about the incident:
http://www.rense.com/general44/what.htm
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