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MajorFrank

Rep: 41.8
votes: 6


PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:34 pm Post subject: Heated political/religious discussions Reply with quote

Not so long ago I found myself banned from a site I used to frequent. The topic was almost always political or about religion. The discussion that got me banned was a somewhat heated talk on the subject of religion, Christianity. Insults were being thrown from both sides but only me ended up getting banned.

Now, I rarely throw the first stone in a debate such as that one but I will throw the second and third and fourth. I didn't start the trashtalk this time either. Trouble is, on the subject of religion with religious people, the discussion will almost inevitably turn hostile. I've also noticed that some Christians will actually attack aggresively against those whom they see as criticising their religion. I thought they're supposed to turn the other cheek and forgive etc. How wrong was I.

Oh well, live to fight another day.  Cool
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AT_Stalky

Rep: 27.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: Heated political/religious discussions Reply with quote

LOL  

If you enter a conversation believing that the opposing side will:
MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
I thought they're supposed to turn the other cheek and forgive etc.  

-then your sadly mistaken.     Laughing  

Hehe:
MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
 I've also noticed that some Christians will actually attack aggresively against those whom they see as criticising their religion.

Hmmm, ever heard about the protestant / catholic conflicts…  Laughing  

Mmmm, What’s that smell, mmmm, ahhh its “fresh flame bait”  Cool
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pvt_Grunt

Rep: 84.7
votes: 5


PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:05 pm Post subject: Re: Heated political/religious discussions Reply with quote

I try to think twice, or three times before going into these topics, luckilly though, I'm ALWAYS right, so that helps  Wink
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ArmeeGruppeSud

Rep: 9.5
votes: 7


PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: Heated political/religious discussions Reply with quote

MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
I've also noticed that some Christians will actually attack aggresively against those whom they see as criticising their religion. I thought they're supposed to turn the other cheek and forgive etc. How wrong was I.
Hi MajorFrank

Speaking (typing) as person with a strong christian faith, i must defend my bretheren and apologise to you on their behalf.

Faith is a passion!

Anything that a person is passionate about will invoke strong emotions.

Strong passionate emotions can easily turn into anger and in anger people (even christians) will sometimes lash out with verbal (even literary) abuse and insults.

You were correct, we are supposed to turn the other cheek.

Christians are expected to endevour to be perfect!

A goal which, for mere mortals, is realistically unatainable.

Yet, we must pick ourselves up after every failure, and continue in our pursuit of Godliness

Fortunately, God knew this, and our Salvation does not rely on our ability to be perfect, but rather, the problem of our sin (imperfections) has been solved by Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross, vicariously paying sin's penalty on our behalf,...............Yahoo!  Hallelujah!

Now, just reading between the lines, i shall assume that you argue with Christians and make fun of, and criticise their (our) faith.

In light of that, may i generously and warmly extend to you every conceiveable, demeaning insult available in every language on earth   Very Happy   Razz   Laughing   Smile

Cheers

AGS

_____


@ AT_Stalky, do you WANT, or NEED, islamic influence in your society?

This question is NOT Rhetorical!

STILL WAITING FOR YOUR ANSWER
.
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MajorFrank

Rep: 41.8
votes: 6


PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: Heated political/religious discussions Reply with quote

AT_Stalky,

well I would characterize myself as pretty anti-religious but I'm also not an anti-moralist, I believe in high morals and ethics. I don't think one needs religion to develop a sense of morality. However, these Christians, they uphold Jesus as their guiding idol and promote stuff like wars and yes, throw all the insults they can at people who criticise their religion.

IRL (outside the Internet, lol) I've noticed that at least some Christians do their utmost to 'keep up appearances' and behave well. I don't have a problem with that. Maybe on the Internet there are more of these 'fighting Christians' who go into attack mode against atheists and freethinkers such as myself. Would Jesus do that?  Very Happy

And yea I know about the Catholic-Protestant conflict, I have no illusions about Christians and how violent/rude/aggressive they are.

And I'm not trying to flame anyone. I have only one religion, that is Close Combat.  Laughing

ArmeeGruppeSud,

Well how should I put this. I don't go out of my way to seek out religious people, Christians or other, and insult them. It's just that, in my view, religion is still a huge factor in global scale that cannot be avoided. Despite all the advancement in science and rational thinking, these religions organisations still wield great power. Personally I can't ignore that.

I used to belong to a church, here in Finland most kids are baptized into the evangelical lutheran (protestant) church. I left that church in the year 2000, mainly because I didn't want to pay them something called the church tax which is a yearly sum they take from you like a tax. Afterwards I have become very anti-religion in my personal views. With people like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchense selling millions of anti-religion books, I don't even feel the need to explain why I am anti-religion anymore. In my view being anti-religion is the natural state of the mind.

Having said that I don't feel any need to argue with you, for one because I don't want to bring any unnecessary drama here to CC, and secondly because you are probably an ok guy because you like CC.  Smile So...yea.
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AT_Stalky

Rep: 27.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: Heated political/religious discussions Reply with quote

The more political power a religion gains, or the more power a person get through using religion in politics or for his agenda the more corrupt the religion becomes.  The history has taught us that religion then becomes an instrument of power.
This is indeed the story of the western world, and other regions to.
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MajorFrank

Rep: 41.8
votes: 6


PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: Heated political/religious discussions Reply with quote

AT_Stalky,

yea possibly. I'm interested in dismantling the various religious organisations so that they don't become a bigger problem then they already are.

Some say that for example Christianity is on the decline, it's reached it's zenith etc. Personally I think Chrisitianity is becoming stronger, although in many countries science has been getting the upper hand, overall it's still gaining. All you have to do is look into the organisations behind these religions and you see how it's all about money, basically. And they are making more and more money all the time. So I don't really see how they are supposed to become weaker any time soon...?
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AT_Stalky

Rep: 27.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: Heated political/religious discussions Reply with quote

MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
I'm interested in dismantling the various religious organisations so that they don't become a bigger problem then they already are.

A sort of "reversed crusade"..     You will have a well filled schedule for along time, no doubt..
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MajorFrank

Rep: 41.8
votes: 6


PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: Heated political/religious discussions Reply with quote

AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):
MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
I'm interested in dismantling the various religious organisations so that they don't become a bigger problem then they already are.

A sort of "reversed crusade"..     You will have a well filled schedule for along time, no doubt..


That it is, that it is.

Personally I think that a lot can be achieved by things such as just bringing some transparency to these religious organisations. Showing how they make their money, the links they have to governments, big corporations, the various economic organisations, stock markets, etc. I think when people begin to see this they will understand that these churces etc. are just, well, kind of ponzi schemes. All the positive things such as helping the poor etc. that churches claim to do can be done better by non-religious organisations.
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ArmeeGruppeSud

Rep: 9.5
votes: 7


PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:08 pm Post subject: Low temperature political/religious discussion Reply with quote

MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
However, these Christians, they uphold Jesus as their guiding idol and promote stuff like wars and yes, throw all the insults they can at people who criticise their religion.
Promote wars? Not in ANY of the churches that i have visited.

EXCUSE ME! (now ever so politely) where do you get rubbish like that from?

Don't mention the "Crusades" either, the leaders who misled the people were not christians, they just used the peoples faith to trick them into wars of plunder.
The very 1st city sacked, butchered and plundered by the crusaders was a christian city!

MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
Maybe on the Internet there are more of these 'fighting Christians' who go into attack mode against atheists and freethinkers such as myself. ?
Dont assume that all those on the internet who claim to be christians are actually christians.
There are many wolves out there love to discredit Christians by pretending to be one.
You should visit Yahoo Christian Chatrooms,.......... there are few Christians among the chatters there.
But, you are probably, at least to some extent, right, that you will meet a higher percentage "fighting christians", online, than you will find in the churches on a Sunday

MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
Would Jesus do that?
Oh, and Jesus did speak harshly to and about the Pharisees, he called them, amongst other things, "a brood of vipers" and "hypocrites" (Matt.23). So Jesus obviously condones, at least at some level, the rebuking and negatively labelling of people who mislead others.

MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
And yea I know about the Catholic-Protestant conflict, I have no illusions about Christians and how violent/rude/aggressive they are.
Again you are generalising and effectively insulting the great majority of Christians who are not violent/rude/aggressive.
If you are going to generalize, you would be more accurate in saying people/humans are violent/rude/aggressive.

MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
And I'm not trying to flame anyone.
But you succeed nevertheless

MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
I have only one religion, that is Close Combat.
Not so, the faith that you have in the religion of science qualifies  Wink
Atheist swallow the Theory of Evolution without chewing on it and just accept it as fact simply to avoid facing the reality of God.
The evidence against the Theory of Evolution is,.......well endless and is everywhere you look.

The atheistic scientist have to continuingly come up with new theories to try explain why their theories regarding evolution dont add up with the facts,...duh!

MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
It's just that, in my view, religion is still a huge factor in global scale that cannot be avoided
Of course, and no matter how much you allow yourself to be deluded by scientific mumbo jumbo, you will eventually have to face God,... and that... cannot be avoided!

MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
I'm interested in dismantling the various religious organisations so that they don't become a bigger problem then they already are.
I'm interested in dismantling the secularisation of society so that it wont become a bigger problem than it already is  Smile

MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
Some say that for example Christianity is on the decline, it's reached it's zenith etc. Personally I think Chrisitianity is becoming stronger, although in many countries science has been getting the upper hand, overall it's still gaining.
Christianity is growing at an increasing rate, despite the institutionalised deception of flawed science.
China's christian population is increasing at a dramatic rate.

MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
All you have to do is look into the organisations behind these religions and you see how it's all about money, basically. And they are making more and more money all the time.
If you were speaking about scientology, your statement would be true. True christianity (yes there are many counterfeits) is all about relationship with the eternal, infinite entity who created all things that exist,.... God

MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
All the positive things such as helping the poor etc. that churches claim to do can be done better by non-religious organisations.
All the positive things such as helping the poor etc. that churches actually do can not be done better by non-religious organisations, certainly not the government. With most non-religious charities, only about 30% of the donated money gets to the target

MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
bringing some transparency to these religious organisations. Showing how they make their money, the links they have to governments, big corporations, the various economic organisations, stock markets, etc. I think when people begin to see this they will understand that these churces etc. are just, well, kind of ponzi schemes..
Again your generalized comments would have been better aimed specifically at scientology rather than fired indiscriminatily, scattergun style at all religions.

Seriously, when you make such broad claims, statements and accusations in online forums, i would not be the least bit surprised that some people may have questioned your intelectual capabilities in somewhat sarcastic or demeaning ways.

But, by all means, please, show me how he Australian Baptist Union (of which my local church is a member), is linked to governments, big corporations, the various economic organisations, stock markets etc, and how our church promotes wars   Rolling Eyes

Your cheerfully  (i think i kept the temp down  Very Happy)

AGS
____________


@ AT_Stalky, do you WANT, or NEED, islamic influence in your society?

This question is NOT Rhetorical!

STILL WAITING FOR YOUR ANSWER
.
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MajorFrank

Rep: 41.8
votes: 6


PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:49 pm Post subject: Re: Heated political/religious discussions Reply with quote

ArmeeGruppeSud,

well seeing as this is devolving into a religious debate (hope it won't get me banned this time) I'll oblige.

About promoting wars, well when I was in the Finnish military we had these chaplains there who's job is to basically, in war time and in peace time, to forgive all the sins the soldiers do. Personally I see this as very much against the commandment about not killing. Also religion has been a part of many many conflicts, do I really need to list them all? And religion was a part of Crusades as well.

You're a Baptist? I thought baptists are very strict about religion. I know some Christian sects who can't even watch the telly, it's against their religious beliefs. I guess it's ok for you guys to use the Internet?

Personally I've pretty much given up with conversing with relious people. From personal experience I know though that even a formerly religious person can 'come to his senses' and leave their religion. I know some tragic cases who have left some very closed religious sects.

Oh you don't even take the theory of evolution as factual science? Well, that puts you into some pretty hard core religious fringe. Again, I'm sure you're a good individual, just sad that you feel the need to get mentally involved with something like that. Isn't it possible for you to, say, work in a soup kitchen and not buy into the religious dogmatic thinking?

I'll face God, Buddha, Allah, Jehova and the rest of them at once. I'll give you the address of the gym where I train Muay Thai and we can organise a match up.

So you think Scientology is evil but Christianity or your preferred version of it isn't? It's all the same, just a different package.

Hope that clears some things. I think we see the issue from pretty opposite sides, don't feel like getting into a Internet fight over here in CC cause I kinda like this place. And like I said I used to belong a church and was I guess religious for a while. After giving it up, well my eyes have very much opened to the whole thing, all things religious just look really negative to me now. If I can leave religion behind anyone can.

Yours truly,

MajorFrank.
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AT_Stalky

Rep: 27.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: Heated political/religious discussions Reply with quote

And here are the latest odds from ETC-betting office.


Event…………………………………….......................................: Odds
The debate ends in Major Franks salvation.................: 5-1
The debate results in AGS denounces god...............: 245242585-1
Jesus will rise again in 2012.....................................: 8-1
The earth will go under ón 21st of December 2012....: 3,2-1
This thread will be moved to train wreck thread..........: 1-0,9
Matrix will release a Close Combat game that has been beta tested.: 2555258^10-1


Last edited by AT_Stalky on Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:32 pm; edited 2 times in total
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MajorFrank

Rep: 41.8
votes: 6


PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: Heated political/religious discussions Reply with quote

AT_Stalky,

I'd say the odds of me turning religious are much lower then that.

I'm pretty sceptical of joining anything but at the same time I know that non-religious people need to stand up and demand their rights. The world is being run by religious organisations and they don't like non-religious folks.
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AT_Stalky

Rep: 27.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:00 pm Post subject: Re: Heated political/religious discussions Reply with quote

ok.
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ArmeeGruppeSud

Rep: 9.5
votes: 7


PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: Heated political/religious discussions Reply with quote

MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
well seeing as this is devolving into a religious debate (hope it won't get me banned this time) I'll oblige. .
The devolving began in the 1st post  Wink

MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
About promoting wars, ...... religion has been a part of many many conflicts, do I really need to list them all?
Of course not.
That was never in dispute.
It was only the ludicrous suggestion that churches "promoted wars" to which i was objecting and you have given absolutely no support for that false accusation.

The refutation stands  Razz

Actually many wars are caused by atheist, so we should get rid of atheism (sorry, thats your rationale)
Also wars are started because of capitalist economic reasons, so we should get rid of capitalism (sorry, thats your rationale)

Thats sarcasm Sheldon  Razz

MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
You're a Baptist? I thought baptists are very strict about religion. I know some Christian sects who can't even watch the telly, it's against their religious beliefs. I guess it's ok for you guys to use the Internet? .
PMSL  Laughing

Yes, Baptist are reasonably strict, but thoroughly modern, technologically, we use computerised projection systems in our church services. We even get out church newsletter by email (to save paper and the trees)  Very Happy
Just dont confuse us with the Amish mennonites who wont use any technology at all (they still use the horse and cart).

MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
Personally I've pretty much given up with conversing with relious people. From personal experience I know though that even a formerly religious person can 'come to his senses' and leave their religion.
From personal experience I know that even former atheists can 'come to their senses' and find salvation through Faith in Jesus.  Wink

MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
I know some tragic cases who have left some very closed religious sects.
Yes, in those sects, the poor souls can be just as spiritually dead as atheists.

MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
Oh you don't even take the theory of evolution as factual science?.
It is factual that evolution is only a scientific theory.
It is a scientific fact that the theory of evolution is unproven as scientific fact.

If you are willing to accept any theory as a fact......
Then accept as fact the theory of a creator God  Very Happy

MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
Isn't it possible for you to, say, work in a soup kitchen and not buy into the religious dogmatic thinking? .
LOL
Isn't it possible for you to, just do your usual job and not buy into the anti-religious secular thinking?

MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
So you think Scientology is evil but Christianity or your preferred version of it isn't? It's all the same, just a different package.
Actually, scientology, various other sects, false religions and atheism are all the same, just packaged differently. They all lead people away from eternal salvation  Sad  

AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):
And here are the latest odds from ETC-betting office.
Event…………………………………….......................................: Odds
The debate ends in Major Franks salvation.................: 5-1
We can only hope and pray  Cool

MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
I'd say the odds of me turning religious are much lower then that.
Yeah, maybe only 3:1  Wink

AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):
Event…………………………………….......................................: Odds
The debate results in AGS denounces god...............: 245242585-1
Try 99999 recurring - 1  Very Happy


MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
I know that non-religious people need to stand up and demand their rights. The world is being run by religious organisations and they don't like non-religious folks.
Actually, i think it is the opposite,
At least from my perspective here in Australia, the world seems to be run by anti-religious secular governments that don't like religious folks. Christians need to stand up and demand their rights.

MajorFrank wrote (View Post):
I used to belong a church and was I guess religious for a while. After giving it up, well my eyes have very much opened to the whole thing, all things religious just look really negative to me now. If I can leave religion behind anyone can.
Thankyou for your frank and honest testimony. Some people do have negative religious experiences that can give them a wrong concept about Chrisitan faith. As a child, i was into dinosaurs and knew all the scientific periods (mesozoic, jurasic, triasic cretaceous etc) off by heart and was well read on evolutionary theory. If can i put that behind me and find the truth, anyone can  Cool

Here's hoping that you either find the truth, or the truth finds you (thats what happenned to me).

God bless you Frank

may the stats be with you (in CC)

cheers

AGS

_____


@ AT_Stalky, do you WANT, or NEED, islamic influence in your society?

This question is NOT Rhetorical!

STILL WAITING FOR YOUR ANSWER
.
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MajorFrank

Rep: 41.8
votes: 6


PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: Heated political/religious discussions Reply with quote

Oh yea, I meant the odds are higher. Sorry, English is my second language. Third language actually (after Finnish and Swedish).

Like I said there are plenty of examples religion and churches advocating war and violence and Christianity is clearly the most bloodiest of all religions.

The Christian sect that can't watch telly I was referring to is called laestadionism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laestadianism

I didn't belong to lestadionism but I've met some IRL and gotten into arguments with them as well. There are many many Christian sects that are like this, thousands and thousands of kids are born into these sects and thus brought up brainwashed into them. Also many of these sects are against condoms etc. so they usually have like families of 10 + kids which is an effective way of growing the movement.

Why forcibly baptize kids into a religion, why not give them a chance to choose for themselves when they are of age (18 years +)? And what's with the ciricumcision etc. crap? Your god sure is one freaky guy if he wants stuff like that done to little babies.

And no I don't think I'll be adding a big bearded guy, flying dudes with wings, etc. to my thinking about the origin of the universe. Sorry.



Well I've kinda said everything I had to say about this.
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CSO_Talorgan

Rep: 51.9
votes: 1


PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:58 pm Post subject: Re: Heated political/religious discussions Reply with quote

AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):
ever heard about the protestant / catholic conflicts…


I thought that sectarianism was a speciality of the northern Celts. Didn't know that the rest of you indulged in it too. Do you?
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kawasaky

Rep: 22.2
votes: 5


PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:20 pm Post subject: Re: Heated political/religious discussions Reply with quote

Shit!
Not again...
Quantum mechanics people!
Nothing material exists, and in that material nothingness, everything is one and one is everything.
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MF_Church

Rep: 26


PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:05 am Post subject: Re: Heated political/religious discussions Reply with quote

Well, I'm loving this!

Anytime Open Dialogue is allowed to Brighten & Reveal what our hearts hid from even ourselves is always a huge blessing.

Like when Iron sharpens Iron, words can clean up issues and strongholds in our thoughts.  Slicing through too long held views and pet ideas long dead or dying a slow death.

And we all Online may partake of each swing of the Blade of truth as it strikes down the other less wholesome one.

Thank you to everyone.  I really do rejoice with each one of you.   But none more than when 'Truth' rings out loud and clear!

p.s. I am a 'follower' of Christ and I owe a big part of that to a close friend a Finn while in our late teens and early 20's who was a new beginner/believer at that time.  
p.s.s  God hates religion.  Man's attempt to reach God.  When God has already reached down and is still reaching... Smile
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AT_Stalky

Rep: 27.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:43 am Post subject: Re: Heated political/religious discussions Reply with quote

MF_Church wrote (View Post):
p.s.s  God hates religion.  Man's attempt to reach God.  When God has already reached down and is still reaching... Smile

Yes..

----------------

Some other thoughts:

Its seems that there’s only a type of personality that wants to be worshiped and likes when people sucking up to them, here are some: Hitler, Stalin, Kim Jung II, Ceausescu, Rakosi, Jim Jones, and a few others..   I can’t really see “god” amongst them… I believe god prefers a more dignified relation with his creation.

/S
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