Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:47 am Post subject: Re: Heated political/religious discussions
even if there is an all power full one...i bet he not getting what it wanted from us...most of it is just foolishness for people to controll people with small minds.
stumpy come to gameranger i want ta kick your Ass!
Tiger
The best Target is the one you just Hit!
Started with CC1 Demo
Last edited by tigercub on Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:30 am; edited 1 time in total
Perhaps you should read "The Gulag Archipelago" by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn ... there are some interesting insights about how humans behave in conditions you claim to desire
And it all happened less than a hundred years ago!
I haven't read the "The Gulag Archipelago" but I've read other works from Solzhenitsyn. I'd say that he was a humanist in his world views and religious because he opposed the Soviet system.
People often use Soviet Union as an example about atheism/non-religiousness/etc. but I don't think that's fully accurate. It wasn't non-religousness that caused the end of SU, it had more to do with economics etc. Non-religousness was the thing they got right.
It's interesting how after the collapse of SU many people were using religion as a kind of a 'mallet', and once the SU had collapsed people had to think for themselves "what good is this religion thing, really" and had to find out that it actually very useless. Religion is a kind of a ancient ponzi scheme where wealth is taken from many and given to few. No room for archaic systems like that in a modern society that relies on high level technical stuff including very high level strategic and tactical thinking as in the CC - game series. :wink:
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:44 am Post subject: Re: Heated political/religious discussions
AGS,
as for the Nazis, they were very religious. They used the Christian church, that in turn helped the Nazis. The Nazis also had their own religion, based on Germanic legends etc. crap. So, fail again.
To sum this up: The GULAG was created by a christan Tsar
AT_STALKY, do you presume that the Tsar was a genuine Christian?
What evidence do you have that this particular Tsar was actually a genuine Christian?
Have you measured his life by the (metaphoric) plumline?
As Jesus said in Mathew 7:16-21, you will know christians their fruit (a metaphor for the deeds/behaviour in their lives)
16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
The creation of the Gulags is by no means "Fruit of the Spirit". (see Galations 5:22)
Don't be naive my friend, not all those who claim to be Christians actually are.....
Many corrupt people pose as christians for their own selfish reasons.
Some as a means of power.
Some as a way to gain status.
Some to gain influence.
Some to gain approval.
Some for other reasons
My friend, be careful to base your arguments on validated facts, not on suppositions, assumptions, and presumptions.
as for the Nazis, they were very religious. They used the Christian church, that in turn helped the Nazis. The Nazis also had their own religion, based on Germanic legends etc. crap.
MF
The Nazis were religiously ANT-CHRISTIAN and ANTI-RELIGIOUS
The only bit that you had right in your post was They used the Christian church as a means of decieving and manipulating the people
The Nazis were TOTALLY ATHEISTIC in their thinking and their world view.
This has been fully covered earlier in this thread, go back and read it again.
So you have not only failed, but also made a complete fool out of yourself yet again.
Yes i have to agree with Stalky here and this and many more atrocities committed by Christian men is the reason i turn my back to it.
.
Blackstump, do you presume that these atrociters were, in fact, genuine Christians?
What evidence do you have that these particular atrociters were, in fact, genuine Christians?
Have you measured their lives by the (metaphoric) plumline?
As Jesus said in Mathew 7:16-21, you will know christians their fruit (a metaphor for the deeds/behaviour in their lives)
16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Galatians 5:16-24 gives you a good guide to judging fruit
16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.
Now these so called Christians you alude to, which verses are most akin to their fruit? 19-21, or, 22-23?
If their actions (fruit) are more akin the sinful nature (19-21), then it is extremely unlikely for them to be Christians (maybe they repented and changed before death, who knows)
Don't be naive my friend, not all those who claim to be Christians actually are.....
Many corrupt people pose as christians for their own selfish reasons.
Some as a means of power.
Some as a way to gain status.
Some to gain influence.
Some to gain approval.
Some for other reasons
My friend, be careful to base your arguments on validated facts, not on suppositions, assumptions, and presumptions.
What evidence do you have that this particular Tsar was actually a genuine Christian?
It’s so easy for you... If a christan does something you don’t agree with, you just label him as a non-Christian.. No wonder there are only "good" Christians according to the “good” Christians…
Me, I will take the opposite position, and say that people who claim to be Christians, and whom are doing evil things are genuinely Christians....
And the Christians who are genuinely good only believe they are Christians, but instead they are unaware humanists ...
What evidence do you have that it is not so?
See what I mean, its imposible...
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:15 am Post subject: Re: Heated political/religious discussions
I've been away BUT WOW! 5 pages Away! :)
And i've read ALL of them in one!!! sitting.
Gentlemen, we are out of our LEAGUE! in the logic department with some ONE. I include myself.
:D
O.k. D E F I N I T I O N S : The Church in the bible sense means... God the HOLY Spirit places the P A R D O N spirit of a PERSON into a BODY of other spiritual beings with JESUS CHRIST- being the thinking part of that body ! (Head).
Christian. SomeOne who has FOUND God. Everyone Else is just UNHOOKED and LOST !
Believers in this thread are trying to say how they found that GOD is there and willing to be FOUND by anyone. You could say He is dying! to be found. (Jesus on the cross).
IS there any WONDER that folks on the OPPOSITE side of that CONNECTION ~ get confused! Earth Bound looking instead of Heaven.
The BIBLE is a Spirit Book. Heavenly Inspired by God upon those IN THE BODY of Christ who happen to be STILL on earth when Jesus was here.
So Take OFF your earthy eye Glasses and LISTEN... with your spirit (Heart) eyes.
This will help clear up 98% of the posts in here.
There are 2 Types in here. The one type who are looking from God's vantage point. And the second from down here and even some ~ below.
Either way, I've really been enjoying EVERYone's comments.
Human behaves bad without the Christian Church seem to be your main driving point here David… Right?
"We have arrived at this point in time from the past and unfortunately there are many institutions in our societies that are very outdated, mainly the religions. So far we haven't done away with these religions. It is time to do so, otherwise we will not develop as a society and as a species."
Since MajorFrank posted the above in quotation, I thought he might want to see what his idea about doing away religions (which I assume includes Christianity) might look like if there was a similar previous attempt in history.
I'm not sure if MajorFrank has any ideas about how to develop this society, but some countries have tried by means of State Atheism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism
Some detailed information about the inner workings of such a society (from people who recorded their personal experiences) is available in the book "The Gulag Archipelago".
Similarly if someone said ...
"I think we should put a damn in the river for generating electricity and make a genetically engineered salmon that we can harvest in hatcheries, so they don't go extinct because of the damn blocking their spawning grounds" ... then I would direct that person to information about an similar previous attempt.
Info linked below about the Columbia river
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qrW8erO6cw
They did make a kind of genetically engineered super fish ... but according to the documentary, one of the keys to the salmon's survival and robustness was its micro-evolutionary diversity gained from the vast network of linked streams/rivers that compensates for varying conditions. A number of the salmon species native to the river are now extinct along with many other damaging side effects. Some of the damns along the river have been removed and concerned people are working to restore the salmon's natural habitat in hopes of saving the remaining salmon species.
I doubt it's possible to establish a direct factual cause and effect relationship of a society under state atheism and the behavior of its population ... but perhaps knowing the depth of depravity and social injustice present in such a society is enough to, at least, make us wonder why.
If you're interested, read the book and decide for yourself
Last edited by davidssfx on Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:55 am; edited 2 times in total
I thought he might want to see what his idea about doing away religions (which I assume includes Christianity) might look like if there was a similar previous attempt in history. I'm not sure if MajorFrank has any ideas about how to develop this society, but some countries have tried by means of State Atheism..
I doubt it's possible to establish a direct factual cause and effect relationship of a society under state atheism and the behavior of its population ... but perhaps knowing the depth of depravity and social injustice present in such a society is enough to, at least, make us wonder why.
I will not argue the GULAG systems horrible and inhumane era. Thou you failed to recognize it were set up by a Christian Tsar who run a state based on religion - the Christian church.... The irony here is that the system was demolished by a god-less communist, Nikita... So, doesnt that fact in it self tell you that the system was not a product of atheism..
And if you wants to go down the lane and say that the god-less Soviet way of running the prison camp was worst than a Christian regime... I would save you the trouble and just bring one example to your attention; the British Christian states handling of the Boers … In the British concentrations camps some 25% of the prisoners died, they was children, woman and men at all ages..
society under state atheism and the behavior of its population ... but perhaps knowing the depth of depravity and social injustice present in such a society
Wow, yeh there where no depravity and social injustice in the Christian Tsars Russia, why not ask a serf, or a worker?.. .. .. And a African in Belgian Congo would not feel any depravity and social injustice would they… And the African Americans just 50 years ago would not feel any of that… Btw, how about the native Americans, what would they feel? Open your eyes..
David, did you deliberate avoid the rest of the information in my post?
You point to a inhuman actions done by the Soviet state as an example of what happens when humanity do away with the church… or religion..
Yet you fail to take in what religious states founded or based on Christianity are capable of… What was worst, how the Stalinist used the GULAG prison system, or how the Christian acted in post roman Europe, and its longggg legacy. That feudal system that the Church was a part of, and the slaves et al that was traded like positions and done with as pleased by the owners was with us up to less than 120 years ago..
As I said, Stalin him self was just 7 years away from the date the Serfs’ was freed in the Christian Georgia..
And the burning witches, and... and..
You fail to see how the European Christian states used or allowed slaves for profit maximization, and that dark spot on humanity dwarfs anything that happened in the Soviet GULAGs. ..
These and many more grim actions was the everyday life in utopian Christian states that you fiend so benign and humane..
Yet your blind eyes sees only the Soviet GULAGs as a hideous example of what happens when the a state separates from the church…
If you're interested, read the book and decide for yourself
I have that book, it was an important political book at its time, up to 20 years ago. But its a novel..
He said that some 50 millions passed the camps, but modern reserch from archives indicates that it was very exagurated.. ..
But read something like Gulag by Anne Applebaum.. And you will see what relly whent wrong and why and at what scale... Its horrible enogh without exagurating..
Last edited by AT_Stalky on Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:11 pm; edited 5 times in total
as for the Nazis, they were very religious. They used the Christian church, that in turn helped the Nazis. The Nazis also had their own religion, based on Germanic legends etc. crap.
MF
The Nazis were religiously ANT-CHRISTIAN and ANTI-RELIGIOUS
The only bit that you had right in your post was They used the Christian church as a means of decieving and manipulating the people
The Nazis were TOTALLY ATHEISTIC in their thinking and their world view.
This has been fully covered earlier in this thread, go back and read it again.
So you have not only failed, but also made a complete fool out of yourself yet again.
David, did you deliberate avoid the rest of the information in my post?
You point to a inhuman actions done by the Soviet state as an example of what happens when humanity do away with the church… or religion..
Like it or not, the Soviet state is an example of what happens when humanity does away with the church, or religion ... because the Soviet state was operated by state atheism ... that is fact.
What direct effect the removal of religion (and the new communist/atheist teaching that replaced it) had on people is impossible to know ... we can only speculate.
Similarly, we can't know the hearts and true beliefs of other people in history ... and therefore can't say with any certainty that what they did was directly related to a specific belief system and if they were following that belief system or not.
Perhaps it is best not to speculate about things we can not know for sure, and instead look at the teachings of Jesus that were intended for us to follow, for God's glory and our benefit.
Matthew 5
New International Version (NIV)
Introduction to the Sermon on the Mount
5 Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them.
The Beatitudes
He said:
3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Salt and Light
13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.
The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Murder
21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[b][c] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’[d] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.
25 “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
Adultery
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
Divorce
31 “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’[f] 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Oaths
33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.[g]
Eye for Eye
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[h] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Last edited by davidssfx on Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
Like it or not, the Soviet state is an example of what happens when humanity does away with the church, or religion ... because the Soviet state was operated by state atheism ... that is fact.
Its also a FACT that the Swedish democracy operates under non religious forms! We also seperated the state and church.. So have many nations.... Where are the Swedish GULAGs etc?
What direct effect the removal of religion (and the new communist/atheist teaching that replaced it) had on people is impossible to know ...
As I said in the post at the previous page, the Soviets reinstated the Church during the Grate Patriotic War, that was in 1941…
You use a book that is a novel and draw conclusions from it like its facts .. .
The Church was at a very low standing for 20 years and many many many priests was killed, but so was many many of the former administration and basically ALL of the old "atheistic" Soviet top elite… And they was atheists… And, just because someone is communist dont mean they are atheists... They come in all chapes and colors.. Just because someone is a Social Democrat dont mean one is republican, even though the doctrine.... See...
But even the Soviet constitution allowed religion. ..
A quote from Wiki:
“After Nazi Germany's attack on the Soviet Union in 1941, Joseph Stalin revived the Russian Orthodox Church to intensify patriotic support for the war effort. On September 4, 1943, Metropolitans Sergius, Alexy and Nikolay had a meeting with Stalin and received a permission to convene a council on September 8, 1943, which elected Sergius Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia. This is considered by some as violation of the XXX Apostolic canon, as no church hierarch could be consecrated by secular authorities.[26] A new patriarch was elected, theological schools were opened, and thousands of churches began to function. The Moscow Theological Academy Seminary, which had been closed since 1918, was re-opened. Between 1945 and 1959 the official organization of the church was greatly expanded, although individual members of the clergy were occasionally arrested and exiled. The number of open churches reached 25,000. By 1957 about 22,000 Russian Orthodox churches had become active. But in 1959 Nikita Khrushchev initiated his own campaign against the Russian Orthodox Church and forced the closure of about 12,000 churches. By 1985 fewer than 7,000 churches remained active.”
" In 1987 in the Russian SovietFSR, between 40% and 50% of newborn babies (depending on the region) were baptized. Over 60% of all deceased received Christian funeral services."
Thouse figures are pretty much the same as we have here today.. And that was in 1987, after 70 years of Soviet atheistic regime .. Imagen.. (And yes, we cant expect the Soviet Muslimes and Jews etc. to be baptised and have a christian funeral can we. What service do you belive they recived?)
And, NO im not a communist, and no im not glorying the Soviet society.. But im not operation under a double standard… If you call one bad, and another does the same or worst you should call em bad to.
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: Heated political/religious discussions
Click on the button here, its some strong images and the sensitive are advice not to press the button.
Hidden:
Here are some images taken by some American prisonguards:
If this behaviour against prisoners can develop in 2005? by educated Americans from a land where most people testifies to be Christians…. Why cant similar things happen in Soviet GULAGs in 1945?
If something bad is done in Soviet you scream bloody atheists … but when a Christian European/American does something.....
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:58 pm Post subject: Re: Heated political/religious discussions
Hi AT_Stalky,
I am guilty of making a generalization about the effects of state atheism during the Soviet era. I apologize, and thanks for bringing this to my attention.
You make some interesting points, but please let me answer your question/s before you launch the argument from what you think might be my position and then argue against that.
You've also seem to at times post irrelevant reasons (aka red herring) to our discussion, which makes it hard to stay on topic in a meaningful way.
If I find time I'll go back and see if I can tackle them one by one.
Besides that, thanks for the extra history stuff you've posted ... some is interesting, and some is new to me
Human behaves bad without the Christian Church seem to be your main driving point here David… Right?
I wasn't thinking that far ahead ... I was just presenting info about what this kind of state may look like and what is costs to get it. In fairness though, by suggesting one thing usually implies the opposite. So, to answer your question ... if the people who belonged to the Christian Church you mentioned were following the teachings of Jesus ... then yes, I think they would behave better.
This is several times you've mentioned this mysterious theory of mine which I am not aware of. But by how you have framed your argument, I can guess that you think that I am implying that if any nation claims to be Christian that every leader and person of that nation is unable to commit a sin (or do a bad thing).
Is this the theory you have decided is my position, that you are so intensely trying to prove wrong? If it is, then I can honestly say I have never (above the age of six) thought this is possible? Age six is when I was walking home from school and I found a salamander in the ditch along the road. A kid passing the other direction saw what I had and said he would trade it for his knife. I said yes and gave the salamander to him, and then he said his knife was in the branch of the close by tree. After climbing the tree, I didn't find a knife. A valuable lesson in life I guess. To be honest there were many other things before that that clued me into how things work here on earth, but for some reason that story sticks out ... perhaps it's less painful than the others
Last edited by davidssfx on Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:01 am; edited 1 time in total
Btw, how about the native Americans, what would they feel?
I've studied quite a bit about the fate of Natives in the U.S. and Canada and lived in several regions where the present day effects of those terrible things from the past continue on in the dysfunction of the reservation system. I'm sure they felt betrayed and angered by the injustices put upon them ... I certainly feel bad even reading about it.[/quote]
David, did you deliberate avoid the rest of the information in my post?
No, I've made attempts to try and convince you I was only passing along relative info to MajorFrank's statement ... hoping he might take a look at the book and see if he still thought enforcing state atheism is a good idea.
These and many more grim actions was the everyday life in utopian Christian states that you fiend so benign and humane..
Yet your blind eyes sees only the Soviet GULAGs as a hideous example of what happens when the a state separates from the church…
I've never said that I find any of the terrible things done in malice or pretense of the church to be benign and humane. And I'm more than aware of some of the terrible things churches have done to people ... no need to try and convince me ... thanks for the extra info though.
But its a novel..
He said that some 50 millions passed the camps, but modern reserch from archives indicates that it was very exagurated..
I was aware that some people think it was less. I never claimed to believe everything presented in this or any other book ... though I do believe every word of the Bible was inspired by God
Last edited by davidssfx on Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:00 am; edited 1 time in total
Its also a FACT that the Swedish democracy operates under non religious forms! We also seperated the state and church.. So have many nations.... Where are the Swedish GULAGs etc?
I don't know where they are ... I never heard anything about them until now
But im not operation under a double standard… If you call one bad, and another does the same or worst you should call em bad to.
If you are implying that I think crimes done by Christians are not as bad as crimes done by atheists ... then you are completely 100% wrong. Again you have come to this conclusion without all the facts
Last edited by davidssfx on Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:08 am; edited 1 time in total
If this behaviour against prisoners can develop in 2005? by educated Americans from a land where most people testifies to be Christians…. Why cant similar things happen in Soviet GULAGs in 1945?
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(Jesus on the cross).
