[davidssfx]

if the Bible is true ... maybe a good question to ask ourselves is: what would it take for me to believe?

Luke 16
The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

[davidssfx]

[dj]

Did the founders of the world religions imply literal or figurative interpretation of their workings?  Figurative I think does make more sense.  There is a lot of sound wisdom and logic in most legitimate religions.  I do not think the wordings of the bible , koran or other documents were intended to be taken literally.  Also because some of the writings contradict themselves.  People can find things that justify murder.  While at the same time telling us not to murder our fellow man.  I think historically all of the big Nations have manipulated religion like a tool to indoctrinate people to fight in war or do things normally against their will.  Did Allah really guarantee a 1000 virgins for martyrdom?  I highly doubt it.  

Here is some food for thought.  We only realized the Earth was a sphere for a relatively short time period.  We only went to the moon 40 years ago.  Man is only in the very beginning stages of understanding Science.  Some of the sharpest minds in the world are doing research at MIT and other prestigious institutes on things like understanding what the 4th (or 5th ) dimensions are.  As we speak we are just barely starting to realize there is a 4th dimension.  Minimally those in the field of Science are well aware there are some principles that man just can not comprehend but we know mathematically to be true.

Just wait til were old and grey and see what the next Scientific revolution brings.  The Mid-East use to be the cultural and scientific capital of the world after the fall of Rome.   We should thanks our Mid-East friends for the fine contributions to science they brought the world.  It is shame that so many of their nations are dominated by the Shroud of fundamentalism that rejects Science.  Also America is walking a fine line towards the rejection of Science in the name of Puritan fundamentalists that mock science and actually think Global Warming is funny or some type of joke that Liberals make believe.

[Stwa]

I am sorry, but the recent quotes from Numbers, Deuteronomy, Samual, and the like have put me over the top.

The appalling suppositions that follow these quotes demonstrate a complete lack of understanding regarding the composition of the Bible, its narrative, and theologies (past and present) regarding the Old Covenant, its abrogation, the New Covenant, and last but not least, Christian Ethics and how they were derived in the first place.

The posts providing these quotes, I find utterly simplistic, and grossly misinformed.

In this case, the deceivers are simply deceiving themselves.  

Try these links for a baseline and go on from there  

Abrogation of Old Covenant Laws

Christian Ethics

Old Testament

[AT_Stalky]

Stwa…

Im quoting from your links there Stwa:

“While most Christian theology reflects the view that at least some Mosaic laws have been set aside under the New Covenant, there are some theology systems that view the entire Mosaic or Old Covenant as abrogated in that all of the Mosaic laws are set aside for the Law of Christ. Other theologians don't subscribe to this view, believing the Law and the Prophets form the basis of Christian living and ethics, and are therefore not abrogated; rather, they can only be understood in their proper context subsequent to the advent of the Messiah.”

Yeh, "While most”… “at least some Mosaic laws have been set aside”…  while.. “Other theologians don't subscribe” ... "therefore not abrogated"....  .."in a context"...  Wow. Have or have not abrogated and set aside or still recognise the old laws, or not, or part of it, or they are now seen in a context... .. ……
Would it not be more accurate if you said, that YOU or YOUR church have set aside the old testament laws?  


But that is irrelevant for the post I made, as I reflected over:

Qoute David: ” The Bible claims that God is eternal and that He is good, just, and loving. If He is and always has been and always will be,"   "If this is true, then we can point to these standards as a measure and guide for our lives" ... ”God's ideas of what is right and wrong as objective and unchanging.”


So, the Bible God david talk about.... the eternal... always have been... unchanging.... morals of god...  
See, I found them qoutes in the bible, and they seem to be about god....... no?
If he’s not the same god as you subscribe to.. … ok… then it’s a question of mistaken identity. So then the bible describes 2 different God's?

1) Or do you mean God changed and reformed? If so, then David cant be correct.. as David said he was unchanging.. 2)Alternetive, Moses and /or the bible is filled with lies about God... ..

But anyway, maybe we should just spank David for his falce teachings..  

[AT_Stalky]

[Blackstump]

[Stwa]

Stalky my friend,

You are hopelessly uninformed about the arguments you a making. So much so, that is causes myself embarassement on your behalf.

Please tell me you are just trying to hone your trolling skills by quoting scripture, becuase it is obvious that you have limited knowledge regarding the following topics.

The Old Testement: its composition and purpose, what sections (books) describe law, and those that are historical narrative. You seem to have a problem discerning passages describing the laws or the history or the formation of said laws, and those passages that simply describe historical events.

The Old Covenent: and the possible membership for this covenant, and how laws help to define Christian ethics, abrogration NOTwithstanding.

The New Covenant: and the possible membership for this covenant (hint: it is different from the Old Covenant) , and how its laws help to define Christian ethics in the era after Christ on earth.

You need help, so your soul may be saved. May I suggest the following church  


Link

[AT_Stalky]

Stwa.

Your rather correct, my bible skills are not that impressive. That should perhaps worry other more than my self….  

I don’t really have time for this anymore, but ohh well, this topic is of interest. ..

Don’t forget that Im an heathen who just tries to reads the bible…Not a expert like you and David… And AGS… So bare with me. When I read the following in the bible, a couple of (small) questions comes to me:
"as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. [...] And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captive, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle and all their flocks and all their goods. And they burned all their cities wherein they dwelt and all their goodly strongholds with fire. And they took all the spoil and all the prey, both of men and of beasts. [...] And Moses and Eleazar the priest and all the princes of the congregation went forth to meet them outside the camp. And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands and captains over hundreds, who came from the battle. And Moses said unto them, “Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who hath known a man by lying with him. But all the women children, who have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

1)The bible sort of suggests that Moses was told by God that he should do things… Is that correct?
2)Are the things commanded good moral things?
3)Is the bible fiction, Or is this real?
4)Did God talk to Moses, or did Moses just make that up? If God did not say that to Moses, why did he say that God told him that? If so, then Moses was a liar?
5)Or, if Moses never said it, why does the holy bible say that God told Moses what to do?  And that brings me to the question, did the people who told the bible story’s lie? Is the bible a lie?
6) If  Moses OR the bible story tellers lied and made things up, then how comes that the new testament say the following:
Luke 16: : “Abraham replied, ‘"They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ " &  “‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”  
Stwa, If Luke say Abraham say we are to listen to Moses, shall we not listen to Moses.. Why didnt Abraham say that Moses or the bible story tellers where liars …

And now you say Im not to listen to Moses, nor to Abraham, nor to Luke…..? Are all three liars?? ?

WTF.

[Stwa]

Stalky,

I love the way that you pretend to be stupid at various intervals in your posts.

It all just goes to confirm that you are simply trolling the thread for your own amusement, and you know you can rely upon the fact that the other forumites are just as lazy as you.

Debates and commentary regarding the "Midianite Massacre" are all over the internet. But to be sure, this incident is just one of many in the Old Testament that is frequently cited as evidence, that God is a butcher.

I will leave you with the following Wiki links to get you started. But do further research, as its a fun topic. Me thinks you will be able to answer your own questions over time.

Midian
Midian War

[davidssfx]

reasons:
1. it is on account of the wickedness of these nations
2. to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob

Deuteronomy 9
9 Hear, Israel: You are now about to cross the Jordan to go in and dispossess nations greater and stronger than you, with large cities that have walls up to the sky. 2 The people are strong and tall—Anakites! You know about them and have heard it said: “Who can stand up against the Anakites?” 3 But be assured today that the Lord your God is the one who goes across ahead of you like a devouring fire. He will destroy them; he will subdue them before you. And you will drive them out and annihilate them quickly, as the Lord has promised you.

4 After the Lord your God has driven them out before you, do not say to yourself, “The Lord has brought me here to take possession of this land because of my righteousness.” No, it is on account of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord is going to drive them out before you. 5 It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the Lord your God will drive them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. 6 Understand, then, that it is not because of your righteousness that the Lord your God is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stiff-necked people.

[davidssfx]

what was the wickedness of the nations?

Deuteronomy 12
29 The Lord your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land, 30 and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, “How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.” 31 You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.

[Stwa]

You like to preach your version of Christianity on this forum AGS. But i have higher virtues then you. -Blackstump

I knew if I waited long enough, someone would provide a simple explanation for all the chaos on the planet since the inception of humankind.

Now, this post is not directed to Blackstump, I just wanted to borrow his comment for a moment.

OK, now I am going to REMOVE any unnecessary pretence or justification to the conclusion.  

But i have higher virtues then you. -Blackstump

Now I am going to ADD a consequence, or action item to the conclusion.  

But i have higher virtues then you. And my kind will wipe your kind off the face of the planet.

[AT_Stalky]

Stwa… You successfully avoided answer any of my 6 questions.

Bible quote "as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. [...]. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who hath known a man by lying with him. But all the women children, who have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."  

Questions:
1)The bible sort of suggests that Moses was told by God that he should do things… Is that correct?
2)Are the things commanded good moral things?
3)Is the bible fiction, Or is this real?
4)Did God talk to Moses, or did Moses just make that up? If God did not say that to Moses, why did he say that God told him that? If so, then Moses was a liar?
5)Or, if Moses never said it, why does the holy bible say that God told Moses what to do? And that brings me to the question, did the people who told the bible story’s lie? Is the bible a lie?
6) If Moses OR the bible story tellers lied and made things up, then how comes that the new testament say the following:
Luke 16: : “Abraham replied, ‘"They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ " & “‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’” --> If Luke say Abraham say we are to listen to Moses, shall we not listen to Moses.. Why didnt Abraham say that Moses or the bible story tellers where liars

Thank you David for the answer:

[Stwa]

I don't have to be clever because you keep saying the same thing over and over again.    

Face it Stalky, you are just an obsessive, compulsive troller, and you just cant help yourself.  

But, try this link for further guidance to the answers that you seek.  

Torah

Hint: Go beyond the Wiki links to find the really crazy stuff. Its more fun that way.  

Someday you will be ready. It will take time, but the day will come when you too can thrust your fists into a wooden box filled with rattlesnakes.

[AT_Stalky]

[Stwa]

I kinda expected that, but you know Stalky, I just want you to save yourself, so your soul wont turn to dust with the rest of your body.  

Here is a story that is good for the young adult crowd, and sometimes it helps to explain why wacky stuff happens in the Old Testament. Its pretty simple, and maybe simple is what you need right now. Me thinks your brain has been overloaded.  

Sodom And Gomorrah

Plus, it might be a good time to bring some Homophobes into the conversation.  

[AT_Stalky]

[Stwa]

Okaaay,

That works.  

Lets put our stuff on the back burner, and wait for AGS to tell us all about deviant behaviour.  

Sodom and Gomorrah is too simple, so lets give him something he can really sink his teeth into.

I know, how about this. After all, its just another sexual orientation, right    

Zoophilia

 

[ArmeeGruppeSud]