Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:24 pm Post subject: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa)
So, what are you thinking.
When I look at those pics, I think the following:
The size of the soldiers and the tanks look the way they have always looked, even when in CCMT.
The map scale also looks a whole lot like it does in CCMT.
So, perhaps I am wrong, but I would venture, that some features on the PitF maps have not been purposely scaled up to the new visual scale. Only southern_land can answer that.
I would also maybe say, that some of the original PitF tanks are too beeg for some of the features on some of the PitF maps. I don't mean the tanks are too beeg, I mean the tanks and some of the map features ARE NOT the same scale.
So, all this makes me wonder, if there is a way to mod or change the pixel to meter scale of the game. Stalky tried to mention something, but I am not sure what he was driving at. This way when you mouse for a range, it would show the older value of 5 pixels = 1 meter, not the new scale of 8 pixels = 1 meter. Your best strategy here, is to just email McClaire.
BTW, the trees have certainly been upscaled, and they are in the terrain file. But I am starting to wonder about some of the other map features. I sure would like to see more screen shots.
Also, try using the small soldier mod. The 9.5 pixel one, and see if there is a CTD. If not, and it works, then voila! I say you are in for using the pre PitF scale, except for the ranges and trees as mentioned above.
I am quessing that there hasn't been any special attention paid to movement speeds. When using the beeg 4800 pixel maps, even on my system and CCMT, everything moves slower.
Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:56 am Post subject: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa)
And if all this scale stuff isn't mind boggling enough, consider the fact that I suppose the ranges of the weapons might not actually match the map scale either. Or even the movement speeds, etc..
I really don't know, but I will bet someone around here does. But some of the first reports over in the PitF forum complained that with larger visual scale and map sizes, you had to keep scrolling around to see the action.
Simply put, it's a drag when the shooters and targets aren't in your game window at the same time. This would happen in CCMT alot, when I was initially playing on the monster CCMT maps.
But at least in CCMTs case, its hideous visiblity data allows targets to approach (in some circumstances) very close before they become visible. (see attached pic)
It's ironical, that a game that is supposed to be noted for its accuracy and detail, may not ever had any two scales the same throughout the history of the series. [facepalm]
Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:38 am Post subject: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa)
It is interesting, probably just for me, but what if CCMT scales where all same, or at least map (and its features), vehicles and soldiers.
And oddly enough, I was able to throw a test together to see what it would look like. Since my cutdown maps are 600 meters scale, all I had to do was use Gimp to expand them from 3000 pixes to 4800 pixels.
And what I got is attached below. Provided all the details on the map were precisely to the map scale, now the map and tank scale is the same at 8 pixels per meter, and I used the small soliders which is very close to this scale.
Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:17 pm Post subject: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa)
This thread shouldn't be construed as complaining on my part. It is just that the abstracted scales, just haven't been anything I have ever concerned myself with too much.
In fact, I keep having to re-locate threads or posts from Tejszd to remember what the scales are.
So, I finally had to sit down and work it out myself. What I find, is that there are many things painted on to a map, that do not necessarily correspond with the stated map scale. Simply, they are not to scale. And it would seem, this can range from structures, windows, doors, roads, and even aircraft, etc..
But if the abstracted scale gets too out of whack, like when a tank is much larger than a road it is supposed to travel on, I could see how this might cause some visual issues, not to mention some map coding or pathing issues.
And in the end, and back to DAK_Legions original pics, the current PitF scale, me thinks, is a way of correcting the imbalance between the overly large soldier scale and the smaller map and tank scales.
One would assume that CC 3D would correct all this, but not necessarily. For instance, MS CFS III (Combat Flight Simulator), had the aircraft twice their normal (scale) size, so their apparent size would be larger and more fun.
Me thinks, it is not so quite a discovery, but it seems the phrase "map scale", has perhaps been abberated over time. Oh I am sure, modders and others in the know, understand. But for NOOBS, this "scale" is really not used in any large sense. Certainly not with features drawn on the map, which tend to be in most cases more closely aligned with the larger soldier and tank scales.
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:38 pm Post subject: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa)
Regarding CCMT on PitF.
There would be only one compelling reason to move CCMT to any of the WW2 games, and that would be to make a campaign game.
There is no way anyone would be able to make an interesting campaign game, becuase anything made will probably be fiction. And part of what makes the WW2 CC games interesting to everyone, is they attempt to recreate a historical campaign. And you the player are trying to see if you can do better than your historical commander counterpart.
So, me thinks in the end CCMT to PitF is not really viable or a good idea. The same would be true for the other WW2 games (LSA, TLD, WAR), etc. And whenever, I play CCMT on maps that were intended for WW2 it leaves a funny feeling, don't know why.
I would like to especially thank southern_land for maps like these and all the others over time.
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:47 pm Post subject: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa)
Have to agree that the scales are not written in stone. Maps were supposed to be 5 pixels per meter but just like vehicles and soldiers were made bigger for additional detail I'm sure on maps some individual items were made bigger to add detail. The scale does not have to be perfectly consistent but juts closer together.
For Meuse I use the 9.5 soldiers for that reason (a 4.5 pixel range/spread);
soldiers = 9.5
vehicles = 8
maps = 5
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:15 am Post subject: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa)
from steve Mclaire on the matrix forum : The soldier sprites (10 pixels/meter) are unchanged in those screenshots and probably will not be re-done, though this is still under discussion. So the vehicles and terrain scale are now the same, while the soldiers are slightly overscale (but much closer than before).
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:58 am Post subject: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa)
I have read McClaire state that the map scale for PitF is 8 pixels per meter.
So, if what you say is true, then the vehicle scale is the same. I have measured several of them from the screenshots, and the vehicles I have measured seem larger than that.
And as we have found out, the primary purpose of my commentary is to demonstrate, that no matter what a stated scale is, objects can be larger in practice. (i.e. their representation during the game)
And I will call attention to the first few screenshots in the thread. The first from DAK_Legion showing CCMT tanks and PitF soldiers, and my first showing CCMT tanks and CCMT soldiers, which look remarkably similar to me, and remind me very much of CC5 soldiers.
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:54 am Post subject: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa)
I think Steve is mistaken. He said the soldier scale is 10 pixels/meter but than states they are unchanged. I have heard the 10 pixels/meter before for CC5 and earlier games but the consensus was that is too low.
Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:12 am Post subject: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa)
Well, I was really hoping that more NOOBS would join in the conversation.
Now, I am sure everone realizes that I am not being critical of the game. But as I mentioned on page 1, scale is something that I have never really even thought of, when I would play CC in the past.
So for once, it has my attention, and I was wondering if it possible that some vehicles in a game could be in one scale, while other tanks could be presented in a different scale altogether.
Surely, the game designer gurus, probably specified a single tank scale. Or did they. And if they did, who is that designer guru anyway. Not that it matters.
But, me thinks the best conclusion that one can make about CC now days, is that there just may not be any real scale at all. For instance the map or "range scale" might be different than the "structures" scale, which might be different than the explodable wooden crate scale, which might be different than the "Axis tanks" scale, which might be different than the "Allied tank" scale, which might be different than the "Allied halftrack scale", which might be different than the crater scale, which might be different than the tree scale.
Now the dead soldiers below do seem larger than the tank scale as well. But I would like more NOOBS (like Manoi) to confirm this. To me it seems, it would be a squeeze to get them through the hatch on one of the tanks in the pic below
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