Superb & agressive AI hats off to the developers!
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Close Combat Series -> Die Kampfgruppen
#41:  Author: flick,  PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:28 am
    —
I think dgfred assumed that we were calling the new AI agressive and suberb on it's own..when infact, we were saying it was suberb and agressive in contrast to the original AI.

Of course nothing can compare to a human player, we are just happy to that the computer AI, know's which direction to move! Razz
#42:  Author: dgfred, Location: N.C., USA PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:49 am
    —
flick wrote:
I think dgfred assumed that we were calling the new AI agressive and suberb on it's own..when infact, we were saying it was suberb and agressive in contrast to the original AI.

Of course nothing can compare to a human player, we are just happy to that the computer AI, know's which direction to move! Razz


Hey it wasn't me, I love this mod and the AI :Cool .
#43:  Author: Pzt_Kevin_dtn, Location: USA PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:48 am
    —
flick wrote:
I think dgfred assumed that we were calling the new AI agressive and suberb on it's own..when infact, we were saying it was suberb and agressive in contrast to the original AI.

Of course nothing can compare to a human player, we are just happy to that the computer AI, know's which direction to move! Razz


Well put.

And Dgfred - I'm still keeping an eye out for you in GameSpy to play some h2h.
#44:  Author: Roel,  PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:47 am
    —
Tippi-Simo wrote:

This is about SDKDK!!


Back to the subject then:

Superb and aggressive AI? I think it has improved compared to earlier CC mods/versions ... but at the cost of giving the AI certain tweaks and advantages. So nothing fundamentally different from what is done for many years in many games. "Better" AI at the cost of realism.

Challenging for a human player to play against? Come on, seriously... Rolling Eyes
#45:  Author: flick,  PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:02 am
    —
Roel wrote:
Tippi-Simo wrote:

This is about SDKDK!!


Back to the subject then:

Superb and aggressive AI? I think it has improved compared to earlier CC mods/versions ... but at the cost of giving the AI certain tweaks and advantages. So nothing fundamentally different from what is done for many years in many games. "Better" AI at the cost of realism.

Challenging for a human player to play against? Come on, seriously... Rolling Eyes


Er..did you read my post? Nobody is saying it's a rival for a human player, just an improvement on the computer.
#46: Re: Superb & agressive AI hats off to the developers! Author: Roel,  PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:03 pm
    —
Hi Flick,

Yes, I have! As well as the first post of this thread that explains its subject:

BobbyDazzler wrote:
i have to express the utmost praise to the developers for this mod, the AI engine that you guys have used is brutally agressive, after nearly 10 years of playing CC, I have finally found a mod that offers a genuine challenge and is a joy to play!!


Hence my reply...

Roel
#47:  Author: dgfred, Location: N.C., USA PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:29 pm
    —
Pzt_Kevin_dtn wrote:
flick wrote:
I think dgfred assumed that we were calling the new AI agressive and suberb on it's own..when infact, we were saying it was suberb and agressive in contrast to the original AI.

Of course nothing can compare to a human player, we are just happy to that the computer AI, know's which direction to move! Razz


Well put.

And Dgfred - I'm still keeping an eye out for you in GameSpy to play some h2h.


I'll be around sometime Wink , right now my daughter (1Cool is in the middle of her senior year of basketball and it is taking up alot of my evenings.

@Roel- Do you not find the AI challenging in this mod??? Have you played
a campaign?
#48:  Author: Roel,  PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:52 pm
    —
dgfred wrote:

@Roel- Do you not find the AI challenging in this mod??? Have you played
a campaign?


Hi dgfred,

I've been playing Panzerjägers mods since the first SDK came out. Finished SDK AI campaign (when I still believed the AI could make a difference), started playing SOC AI campaign (stopped after a couple of turns for the above stated reason), played some battles of SDK:DK to get a brief impression, but once more... So I confess: I didn't actually finish the latest SDK:DK campign. But honestly? No, the AI is not a challenge.
Take a look at http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5086.

To be clear: I really don't pretend to be the expert here. But basically, it comes down to this: don't mind too much about the Soviet armor, and stay out of its LOS. Concentrate on killing the infantry. Do not slow it down unless you can inflict real carnage, but instead let it outrun the armor (which happens frequently due to the low movement/high bog values). Make sure you are in defilade position, the AI only targets directly visible units (except mortars/barrages of course). If necessary, at start, waste his barrages/Katyushas by exposing a bogus unit. As a general rule, the AI goes for the nearest VL, more or less in a straight line. So it shouldn't be too difficult to find good positions vis-a-vis the AI's line of approach (personally, I prefer defilade with little cover over direct LOS with much cover). HMGs, 2cm Guns, etc, those are the kind of weapons that generate the most benefits.
And then there's the usual stuff: take back VLs after the AI has moved on to the next one (you may have noticed that the AI almost always attacks one VL at a time). Place your units at the back of the house instead of in front (again, the indirect approach), preferably with a leader nearby. Use the 'spotted by one = spotted by all' thing to keep track of the enemy units.
And the armor? Well, after taking care of the infantry, then you can try to take out some of those. But I never go all-out on this. An immo result is already great, you can sneak up to the vehicle and capture it when time expires. And again: never start a gun duel unless you're certain to have firepower superiority and/or good kill chances.

The above is not a guarantee that every battle will go as planned. But it will allow you to win the campaign with little worries.
And let's face it: most of this is not the mod's fault; it's just that the AI is inherently weak, especially in attack. This is a given for all mods. That's why over the last 3 years, I've been playing H2H campaigns exclusively...

Now H2H is a different thing: we played the SDK campaign both ways. Each time, the German player forfeited the game after 10 turns or so, because in most battles, he was simply played off the map in one turn; the Soviet player basically moves as he pleases... You can imagine we no longer considered playing SOC afterwards either Smile . Didn't play H2H SDK:DK yet, but I fear it will be the same thing (let me know if not!).

This said, credit given where credit is due: the atmosphere of the Panzerjäger mods is very good (as I already made clear in earlier threads). The variety of teams is also a plus, as is the general level of detail/perfection of the mod. It would no doubt be playing it a lot more if only the H2H play would be more balanced...
And it's great that there are still a couple of dedicated mod makers out there to provide us our daily bread Smile

You are of course free to disagree. It's just an opinion.

Cheers,
Roel
#49: Re: Superb & agressive AI hats off to the developers! Author: flick,  PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:51 pm
    —
Roel wrote:
Hi Flick,

Yes, I have! As well as the first post of this thread that explains its subject:

BobbyDazzler wrote:
i have to express the utmost praise to the developers for this mod, the AI engine that you guys have used is brutally agressive, after nearly 10 years of playing CC, I have finally found a mod that offers a genuine challenge and is a joy to play!!


Hence my reply...

Roel


Ah I see, that makes sense now. :Cool
#50:  Author: dgfred, Location: N.C., USA PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:31 pm
    —
@Roel, I see exactly what you are saying and understand. But just by using these h2h and normal tactics against the AI also shows just how different these mods are to the usual ones right? I hope nobody here believes it is like playing a human opponent, but still this is alot more fun and challenging vs the AI than just about any others.
#51:  Author: Roel,  PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:31 pm
    —
dgfred wrote:
@Roel, I see exactly what you are saying and understand. But just by using these h2h and normal tactics against the AI also shows just how different these mods are to the usual ones right? I hope nobody here believes it is like playing a human opponent, but still this is alot more fun and challenging vs the AI than just about any others.


Hi dgfred,

I agree with you that the SDK/SOC series indeed have an 'improved' AI (the tweaks used are open for debate); AFAIK, only TT's CC4 Vetbob did something similar. And yes, the H2H tactics work well in the SDK/SOC series as well. But to me, these are just sound tactics in any situation, it's just that the predictable AI makes it so much easier to use them. Against the AI, you can be fairly sure to do well. Against a seasoned H2H opponent however, you could get your butt kicked all the same Smile .

Many people choose to play the AI for various reasons; let's say that for them, SDK:DK is indeed a good choice.

Cheers,
Roel
#52:  Author: dgfred, Location: N.C., USA PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:42 am
    —
You are exactly right Roel. Thanks for the tips too :Cool .
#53:  Author: Pzt_Kevin_dtn, Location: USA PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:22 pm
    —
Roel wrote:
dgfred wrote:

@Roel- Do you not find the AI challenging in this mod??? Have you played
a campaign?



Now H2H is a different thing: we played the SDK campaign both ways. Each time, the German player forfeited the game after 10 turns or so, because in most battles, he was simply played off the map in one turn; the Soviet player basically moves as he pleases... You can imagine we no longer considered playing SOC afterwards either Smile . Didn't play H2H SDK:DK yet, but I fear it will be the same thing (let me know if not!).

This said, credit given where credit is due: the atmosphere of the Panzerjäger mods is very good (as I already made clear in earlier threads). The variety of teams is also a plus, as is the general level of detail/perfection of the mod. It would no doubt be playing it a lot more if only the H2H play would be more balanced...
And it's great that there are still a couple of dedicated mod makers out there to provide us our daily bread Smile

You are of course free to disagree. It's just an opinion.

Cheers,
Roel


The SOC mod is actually better for H2H than SDK. PJ somehow changed the core data to make the Germans a lot tougher in SOC than they are in SDK. Their only problem is their low level of Ammo makes it difficult to counterattack or go on the offensive. You have to be very selective. I think PJ was looking at updating SDK with the same soldier data that he created for SOC and SDKDK. But that was some time ago. Not sure if he still has same plans in motion.

.
#54:  Author: dgfred, Location: N.C., USA PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:51 pm
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I don't think he is.
#55:  Author: Infidel,  PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:59 pm
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Well, I'm a long time CC fan and player, and over the last year I've played many mods against the AI and it's been very boring watching tanks get stuck behind buildings battle after battle. I'm now downloading SDKDK to give it a go, but also, I've just today installed Gamespy Arcade so I can finally get playing H2H like I've been meaning to since returning to CC a year ago after a few years away. With the improvements in the internet and broadband in recent years it seems a good time to join the H2H action without being disconnected every 5 minutes. I havn't managed to get a game on H2H though yet, there's hardly anyone on there when I've checked. (I hope I can find some opponants and any tips on finding some would be welcome.)
Meanwhile, I'll finish downloading this new mod and see for myself what the AI is like, but I'm sure H2H will hypnotise me once I get into it, as people have said already, playing another human must be a hundred times better (ie harder) than any AI, no matter how good that AI.
Anyway, not much else to say, other than H2H here I come, I hope it gets busier as I check it out more as there was only about 5 people on there earlier, but I'm sure it does at times.

Here's to Close Combat... one of the best, if not the best game ever to be released on PC, be you against AI or humans regardless.
#56:  Author: flick,  PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:18 pm
    —
I've had CC for two years, and I've played it nearly everyday..
#57:  Author: Roel,  PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:40 pm
    —
Pzt_Kevin_dtn wrote:

The SOC mod is actually better for H2H than SDK. PJ somehow changed the core data to make the Germans a lot tougher in SOC than they are in SDK. Their only problem is their low level of Ammo makes it difficult to counterattack or go on the offensive. You have to be very selective. I think PJ was looking at updating SDK with the same soldier data that he created for SOC and SDKDK. But that was some time ago. Not sure if he still has same plans in motion.

.


Hi Pzt_Kevin_dtn,

Are you saying that the default GC of SOC is playable H2H (ie with good chances for both players?)? That would be good news.
Did you already finish an SOC H2H campaign? I'm interested in hearing your remarks.

Cheers,
Roel
#58:  Author: Pzt_Kevin_dtn, Location: USA PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:45 pm
    —
I would not conclude that the GC for SOC is evenly matched for h2h giving both sides a chance at a victory.... But I do believe the Germans are tougher in SOC and that custom Ops can be designed from SOC for even play. But typically such custom ops would always require the Germans to be on the defensive side of the Op because of the shortage of Ammo. Its just too tough to engage in a true offensive assault when you are short on ammo.

No I did not finish a complete GC in SOC since I had broken so many holes in my opponents lines that he "unofficially" surrendered. We were somewhere around 70-80 battles into the GC.

Note also that I have played quite a bit of SDK h2h but I think the Germans are weaker in current SDK when compared to SOC.
#59:  Author: Infidel,  PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 2:37 pm
    —
Well, I'm downloading this again to play vs AI. My internet just isn't good enough to play H2H to I'm stuck with single player, and have been playing the new CC:WAR, but find the AI absolutely awful despite the claims it's been improved. If I remember correctly this mod had far better AI than WAR.
#60:  Author: flick,  PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 7:50 pm
    —
The AI is pretty sharp..the secret ingredient to good AI, apparently, is in the map-making.

When I play other mods, I wince when I see a huge battlefield, because I know that it's going to be a SLOW battle.
Close Combat Series -> Die Kampfgruppen


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