The "stop moving when fired upon" was introduced to the 'revamped' CC engine on CoI (I guess you didn't bother to try CoI, Mats...I don't blame you...hehehe). This really stupid and annoying 'enhancement' also appears on CCMT.
It explains everything... *sigh*
I wish they'd make a CCMT patch that removes that feature...
Actually, the first real snow accumulations in the area of the Ardennes battle didn't begin until around the 19th and 20th of Dec...and it got colder from there until mid January
yes, according to memoirs i've read the first hvy snow dropped in Bastogne area on December 21st.
i have seen before a plug in that u can use to change maps, it would be good once this sucker is released..(if these days it seems)...to have autumn(fall) and winter maps, so the user can change maps from green style to snow, but very time sonsuming to remake all the maps, so maybe just those germans can physically take by the time snow arrives. BUT its do-able...
Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: Vehicle pathing in the beta version.
CSO_Linebacker wrote:
Sapa wrote:
I sure hope they will fix the vehicle pathing before the game is relesed or else it will be an disaster, or else it was the elements in the map who screwed things up...
I had to use 10 minutes of gametime to move two Tiger II across the bridges!!!
It has been learned that vehicle pathing has more to do with map coding than anything else.
Was it ever worked out, that this was a fault of the game, or that Tiger Two's are too big for the bidges?
really dont know anymore, its been 2 months, a lot 'could' of happened. as i said before,that beta was in my opinion a 75% complete product. that means 25% is yet to be improved,repainted,fixed bugs,fixed pathing etc....
i have no idea anymore. i hope and pray to CC gods its as good as i hoped,and saw by way of improvements. i will be buying this product.
Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 1:05 am Post subject: Re: Vehicle pathing in the beta version.
I use multiple small waypoints to negotiate obstacles such as bridges if I want a more consistent path. If you just plonk a destination point at a distance, you can expect some wierd stuff.
Ok, that's just compensating for what is still very annoying behaviour. In my more humerous moments, I just put it down to the Tank driver having too much Schnapps. What is equally if not more infuriating is the tendency of vehicles to change their presentation at the end of a manouvre, even turning about face and presenting their arse to the enemy! Dumb? Downright suicidal... Seems particularly prevelant in CC3. You have to keep you eye on them!
Even infantry are not immune at bridges. Get a Team to move over a bridge, and see if any get 'trapped' on one side while the rest of the Team makes it over. The only way to get the Team together again is to move the Team back until cohesion is regained. Again, multiple small waypoints seems to reduce this tendency.
That's another caution; beware of bottlenecks! If your pathing leads your Teams into a clash for space, then you can also get bizaree results.
With the exception of a few abherrant behaviours, I find that you do not have to do too much micro-management.
This is just a general comment on CC (all versions), with perhaps the exception of CC1 and 2. I haven't tried War yet, but plan to do so in a little while.
Map Coding has a big influence on this, but also the Tactical AI. As it recalculates on the fly (as it should do!), it gets confused and keeps changing it's mind about what it is going to do. It's not that the AI is 'broken', just not comprehensive enough to moderate such behaviour. The fundemental logic is fine, that is continually assess/react to the situation in real time as it happens, but because the logic is inadequate, it allows such bizarre behavior. The psychological AI is first class, but the tactical AI is a bit primitive.
I do not agree that everything should go 'in a straight line' from start to destination regardless, particulalry in the battle zone. Sure, behind the lines, I would expect nice orderly movement, but troops under fire? That's not realistic. Even tanks would adjust their posture depending on the circumstances, and to expect them to drive mindlessly in a straight line from A to B regardless of the threat (percieved or otherwise) would not be right IMO. I mean, you may instruct a tank to drive straight across a field, but if the crew thought bloody hell, there's an AT gun lurking in the hedges, they might not be so keen. So it's a trade off between what you want and how the Team on the ground respond. Considering the complexity of delivering that in terms of AI, I don't think it's too bad on the whole, but it is something that could do with improvement.
Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 10:01 am Post subject: Re: Vehicle pathing in the beta version.
Just played WaR vs AI campaign and I didnt have any major screaming fits at the monitor like the old CC4. The tanks seem slower than before which may help. I also kept mostly to roads as tanks in WaR get tracked everytime you go bushwhacking. In general there is much more micro mangement in WaR than before, you just get used to it.
I also wonder if faster computers help the AI to make more / better decisions? Even in Original CC4 the tank would eventuallly face the most dangerous attacker, it seemed the computer was scanning the battlefield for threats. Faster computers might make that decision quicker, therefore less spinning. What do you think Beebs - sorry, VonB, didnt mean to blow your cover
Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: Vehicle pathing in the beta version.
My computer is pretty fast (Core2,Quad 2.4GHz)
And I don't see where the AI is any better.Sure they turn to the attacker but I see that with Mortars when using the Move Fast option too.(As soon as I move my gays fast the AI starts dropping Mortars)
What I would like to know is has anyone seen the AI use any Air Support?
With many battles under my belt know I can not recall seeing it one time yet.
Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 11:10 pm Post subject: Re: Vehicle pathing in the beta version.
Quote:
I also wonder if faster computers help the AI to make more / better decisions? Even in Original CC4 the tank would eventuallly face the most dangerous attacker, it seemed the computer was scanning the battlefield for threats. Faster computers might make that decision quicker, therefore less spinning. What do you think Beebs - sorry, VonB, didnt mean to blow your cover
LOL! No worries. vonB was my Alter Ego long before CSO, and after the debacle of Simtek, Beeblebrox is taking some time out It's nice to wander the corridoors of CC again as of yore...
Faster processors will probably just mean the same logic going round faster rather than cleverer. After talking with Steve at the time about the tactical AI, it was clear that it was pretty primitive. Vehicles especially could get into a spin (he he). Basically it couldn't make it's mind up, but more accurately, was constantly changing it's mind which left it going back and forth around the same spot, even literally on the same spot. In some situations, you can use this to your advantage, by 'confusing' the AI. Try hitting a Tank from multiple directions, and sometime it will vaccilate from target to target but not actually firing at anything.
Does WaR still do vehicle spinning?
I recall using a debug version of CCIII which actually drew the path on the screen when you fixed a destination. Here are a couple of examples:
In the first example, even though the route seems reasonably clear, at no waypoint does the AI plan a direct path. Waypoints 1 to 2 is positively bizarre, and even 2 to 3 is difficult to comprehend.
The second example is perhaps easier to follow but that is only a single destination marker, not a series of waypoints. If the underlying Map Code was seen as well, then it may make a bit more sense, but pathing will always be dodgy in confined areas or where there are obstacles unless the Code is developed to deal with it. Contrary to what many might suppose, if it was 'easy' I think it would have been done before now, but the CC Code base is not simple, and the original programmers are not available (for one reason or another) so it is down to programmers who are not familiar with it to try and hack it, and as Steve said, could easily make it worse rather than better, or screw something else up trying.
Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 12:48 am Post subject: Re: Vehicle pathing in the beta version.
yes WAR still does vehicle spinning.
Seen it tonight as an M-21 couldn't get out of the area it had just moved itself into on the map Sibret.
Then on Martelange I watched 3 vehicles in very close proximity do the same while trying to get over a bridge wall.
Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 4:33 am Post subject: Re: Vehicle pathing in the beta version.
vonB, the screen shots using the debug exe that draw the movement lines is neat to see....
Hopefully some more effort is put into fixing or at least making the AI/engine better as the computers today have so much more processing power then when CC was originally coded....
Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 7:59 am Post subject: Re: Vehicle pathing in the beta version.
My thoughts (not being a programming pro or familiar with the code) would be to include a moderation routine for movement rather than mess about with the underlying logic as a first step. It wouldn't solve the Core issue but could at least prevent the more absurd manifestations. The calculated path would be presented to some 'management routine' which would try and evaluate the more crazy results, and modify the path accordingly. Althouth a quicker fix would just be to initiate a 'mindless' pathing fix (i.e. just go from A to B regardless), I would not be in favour of that approach as it would in effect kill any 'intelligence'. We want to make it better not dumb it down so far it becomes a kiddies toy...
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum You cannot attach files in this forum You can download files in this forum
In August of 2004, Zappi, Homba, Bambam887, RedScorpion and MOOXE all pitched
in to create this Close Combat site. I would to thank all the people who have visited
and found this site to thier liking. I hope you had time to check out some
of the great Close Combat mods and our forums. I'd also like to thank
all the members of our volunteer staff that have helped over
the years, and all our users that contributed to this site!
