Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 9:52 pm Post subject: Should B1 bis 75mm heavy tanks be considered heavy tanks?
i don't understand how a tank from 1940 can still be a heavy tank after 4 years of no improvements and other tanks fly right by them in advanced armor, gun, and MGs
it's great against infantry on CC5 but is not a good choice against tanks. the 75mm base cannon is good, but the 40mm AT cannon used by the driver is weak.
At this point it would probably be considered a Medium tank at best. More like an intemidating looking light-medium tank with lots of guns and thick armor.
Afternoon all! With regards to the Char B (Depending on which of the 3 versions built that we are talking about here), it was classed as a heavy tank. Weighing in between 28 and 36 tonnes, with 60mm frontal amour, it was a leviathan compared to other tanks of it's day. But it had a lot of drawbacks. Slow speed, short range, fixed 75mm howitzer facing frontwards and the worst aspect - a one-man turret in which the commander had to direct the crew, fire/re-load the primary 47mm gun and a machine-gun and order other tanks in their troop as well (A little demanding perhaps? Maybe that's why in the CC5 game, it has such a slow fire-rate) and the turrets on most Char B's had no hatch which meant the commander's vision was severely limited (Not to mention his chances of escape if the tank was hit or one of the crew farted)
As well, they were developed by the French to fight another WW1, not to fight in WW2. They were designed to storm trenches and penetrate other front-line defences (Hence the exposed tracks going around the hull), it wasn't really envisaged that they would take on other AFV's or have to contend with targets on it's flanks. Also the French high command only ever used them in small numbers to support the attacking infantry. Unlike the Blitzreig tactics of the Germans, where the tanks were used in mass numbers with the infantry supporting them (A pity the French didn't think of Blitzreig tactics to invade Germany in 1939-40 whilst the Germans were still busy in Poland, but oh well).
But when the Char B was used against German tanks, it performed pretty well. A Char B tank called Eure attacked and destroyed 13 German tanks in the French town of Stonne on the 16th May 1940, most of them Mk III's and Mk IV's, in only a few minutes. The tank safely returned to French lines despite being hit 140 times, a testimony to it's crew and armour.
Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 5:21 am Post subject: mmm
im sure the allies classified the panther as a heavy tank too.
but it is up to the army using the vehicle how they want to classify it.
plus any tank who can take 140 shots is heavy in my books
also recently Stumpy tried to take on my command sherman with a bistank
he had the cover of a hedgerow,which normally gives 1 tank a slight advantage over the one in the open.
but poor old stumpy did not realise the 75mm on the hull could not fire coz its los was blocked by the hedge.
and i was essentially have a duel with a slow reloading 47mm
meant to tell him after the game,guess he will read it here.
Forget words,actions will show your true ambitions!The Battlefield,In many cases, the terrain of a battlefield can be the best resource a commander has. A clump of trees, an abandoned house, or a drainage ditch can all be powerful tools in the right hands
in 1940 majority of german ATG/tank guns were 3.7cm. So no wonder they couldn't pen. B1bis armour.
Actually germans started to work on VK 3001(that became PzVI in 1942) rite after they met first B1 and Matilda II.
In 1940 it was classified as Hvy by all nations i believe. But by 1944 even PzIII was reclassified to lite by germans.
B1's 75mm gun was v weak AT wise. It had ~twice less penetration than 47mm gun in turret. So it was equipped with HE/smoke shells.
Your right there Dima, the standard German ATG in the battle of France was the 37mm PAK36, the 50mm PAK38 was not issued until the middle part of 1940. The 38 being the design date, not the date of introduction (confusing isn't it). The 37mm was as you say unable to penetrate the thick armour of the CharB.
As to the armament, what was the doctrine behind this? could it have been designed with a view that armoured targets eg. tanks be engaged with the 47mm, with the hull mounted 75mm being reserved for Infantry or fortifications?
Anyone out there with knowledge of French armour and tactics?
In the Meuse Mod, the Char B is the king on the battlefield. Most German tanks are PzII, PzIII with 37mm. Only a few PzIV with 75mm short barrel gun. These Char B/Bis are equivalent to Tigers and Panthers in GJS mod. Really hard to knock out.
Anyone out there with knowledge of French armour and tactics?
To understand the design and use of AFVs in the beginning of WWII you have to look back at WWI and the time in between. France and UK were of the opinion that defence, not offence, was the future in warefare (they "won" the WWI by defending themselves from the germans). Armour enthusiasts as JFC Fuller, Liddell Hart and JB Estienne didn't get much attention. The tank had made an good infantry support weapon in WWI, therefore it should stay as an support weapon. There was no need to think ahead since the tactics employed won the war.
The fact that tanks probably would meet eachother on the battlefield was vaguely foreseen, but in some way accounted for by thick armour in France and speed in England. No allied tank in the outbreak of WWII possesed any real AT capability.
In USA the tank was restricted by law as an auxilary infantry weapon and therefore the development of tanks and tactics was very slow.
Before the outbreak of WWII France was forming Armoured divisions, but it could not resist to fragment these for distribution among the infantry divisions. The tank was seen as an support weapon, to use against infantry and strongpoints. The idea of tank vs tank was not considered in any extent.
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