[mooxe]

When a country goes to war, who is to blame?

The soldiers fighting or the politicians?


I think neither. You cannot blame a politician for sending people to war. Leaders send people to war. There is never a time when a group of men are without leadership. Leadership is a natural instinct embedded in every man, some more than others. That leader will naturally rise and the men around him will be influenced by him. So to blame a leader for sending us to war is simply blaming what man is. You cannot blame a soldier for fighting, because fighting is a natural instinct all men are born with. Built on the drive to protect, to eliminate whats threatening you or your family. We will fight to protect that.

So who is to blame? Is blame the right thing to do?

I think war can only be delayed, not stopped.

[Blackstump]

Ok ill get the ball rolling... the soldiers obviously cant be blamed. Unless they are mercenaries, who are literally killing for reward. Politicians... well their the mob ya get, because theres nobody else to choose from.
Usally because the good ones have been crushed by the machine. Tho some do get thru to the top, eg; Hitler was a good politician, came to power thru dubious means, but managed to get a country devastaed by war and the Versalies treaty , back to work, an back on track.... unfortunetly regaining his "living room" entailed force instead of years of " political pressure to the allied countries to give Germany a break". Along the lines of "ok we stuffed up in World War 1 but now 20 years on we need a little help from our combatants". What im saying is leaders that rise to the top have 2 personallty traits, dynamic personallites, and a inborn aggresive nature, the abillity to sieze the day so to speak. Couple this with a total power, an you get ?... total corruption... and if any thing, an i mean a leader who rises to power and then can subjucate the majority of the people. Well then hes a dictator,and then you are held ransom to a corrupted, power hungry, meglomaniac an.... u probably voted him in......

[AT_Stalky]

Economics have a big role in start of WW2, without the economic depression Hitler would have had marginal insignificant support.

[yukongold]

"Then what exactly is the war for?" asks Tjaden.
Kat shrugs his shoulders. "There must be some people to whom the war is useful."
"Well I'm not one of them," grins Tjaden.
"Not you or anybody else here."
"Who are they then?" persists Tjaden. "It isn't any use to the Kaiser either. He has everything he can want already."
"I'm not so sure about that," contradicts Kat, "he has not had a war up till now. And every full-grown emperor requires at least one war, otherwise he wouldn't become famous. You look in your school books."
"And generals too," adds Detering, "they become famous through war."
"Even more famous than emperors," adds Kat.
"There are people back behind there who profit by the war, that's certain," growls Detering.

Erich Maria Remarque All Quiet on the Western Front[/i]

[God4Saken]

G'day all! Interesting question you've asked Mooxe, on who is to blame for a nation going to war. Maybe the general population are the ones at fault for either actively encouraging their politicians to engage in some conflict somewhere (Like the crowds who cheered when their respective nations each declared war back in 1914). Or they are passively responsible for war occuring by being apathetic, afraid to stand up to their own government and failing to actively object to any aggressive foreign policy. I use the quote from the "V for Vendetta" comic series by Alan Moore:-

"People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people!"

So maybe it's all of us who are responsible for wars occuring. But personally I believe it's the politicians who are responsible. They use rhetoric, spin-doctoring and various sorts of properganda to justify their actions ("WMD" is a great example of this). They never say "Look, we know it's wrong in evey way, but we're going to war regardless and of course we're very sorry about this, so there!" Sometimes the generals themselves are the politicians as well and look on wars as the solution to all their problems (Too many examples to list, Gaius Julius Caesar in ancient times, The Argentinian Junta with the Falklands War in modern times). It's interesting you ask this question Mooxe, bearing in mind that Canada has resisted the push from George Dubya to send it's troops to the "War on Terror" in Iraq. I wish Australia had stood up to the US and not commited it's forces to Iraq, fat lot of good it's done us, we're no better off economically. I've no real problem with our respective forces being in Afghanistan as that is where the real "War on Terror" is.

[Badger-Bag]

You know, sayings and expressions START somewhere, some small group or even one person plants the meme into a culture*.

Some one person said "The people are entitled to room to live" first.

Some one person said "Manifest Destiny" first.

Some one person said "The World Wode Flag" first.

So, no, I think you are wrong Mooxie ( In a totally respectful way of course, boss *tugs fetlock to the north* )

I think all wars are EXACTLY started, and steamrolled on, by poli-TIT-ions and their propagandists.

Leaders?. Maybe they fit under the title. though as your eloquent expression of the male human urge to follow a leader makes clear, you don't have to be a politicion to be a leader.

* talking about which, I say we all say "Chimp-boy" instead of "dubya" or Bush. We might start a trend.

When Chimp-boy first turned up, and offered the Fench and Russian people the egregious insult of a NICKNAME, a BELITTLING nickname at that, for their elected representatives, Chirac or Putain should have simply called him "Chimp".
When the people of America rightly complained at their insult, they could have said "Oh no, it is our way of being friendly, EVERYONE calls people by belittling nicknames where we come from"

[mooxe]

What is the point in blaming a politician though? If said politician wasnt there, another one would be, and that politician would start a war (eventually). Its ingrained is us, the instinct is embedded in our heads, its our nature to fight. Blaming a politician is just pointless.

[Badger-Bag]

Aye aye. I am not meaning to BLAME a politician for our faults. I am blaming them for using mankinds faults, to organise armies.

I am a fighting person myself. If someone goes out of their way to cause me a problem, my instinctive reaction is anger and ( when I was younger ) violence. I have schooled myself out of it, mostly, but if someone pokes me on the chin, I am going to have them.

But do you see me organising half the world into flames?.

MOST of the people that have caused wars, have not been themselves physically violent people. You don't hear about Benjimin Franklin headbutting his postman. Napoleon wasn't famous for his brawling. Hitler TALKED a good fight, but he avoided carrying a club. OK, that recent serb fella makes a bit of a blip on the chart, i will give you that.
That people are basically capable of being soldiers, is the TOOL politicians rely on.

When they induct armies, they spend almost as much time making the men savages that will kill the "Faceless" enemy, as they do making them fit. They have to, because otherwise half the men won't actually pull the trigger on some harmless stranger, flinch from putting the bayonet in.

We are bad enough, but not as bad as you would paint us.

Wars are caused by people that hope to come out the other side of them, running a bigger country, or with their shares in Halliburton and B.P. , doubled in value.

[JohnDee]

interesting thread, reminds me at an old song;

its called '' Universal Soldier''

He's five foot-two, and he's six feet-four,
He fights with missiles and with spears.
He's all of thirty-one, and he's only seventeen,
He's been a soldier for a thousand years.

He'a a Catholic, a Hindu, an Atheist, a Jain,
A Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew.
And he knows he shouldn't kill,
And he knows he always will,
Kill you for me my friend and me for you.

And he's fighting for Canada,
He's fighting for France,
He's fighting for the USA,
And he's fighting for the Russians,
And he's fighting for Japan,
And he thinks we'll put an end to war this way.


And he's fighting for Democracy,
He's fighting for the Reds,
He says it's for the peace of all.
He's the one who must decide,
Who's to live and who's to die,
And he never sees the writing on the wall.

But without him,
How would Hitler have condemned him at Labau?
Without him Caesar would have stood alone,
He's the one who gives his body
As a weapon of the war,
And without him all this killing can't go on.

He's the Universal Soldier and he really is to blame,
His orders come from far away no more,
They come from here and there and you and me,
And brothers can't you see,
This is not the way we put an end to war.