Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:32 pm Post subject: Suggestion to Modders about Soldiers equipment.
I just want to let know the modders that please use the type '2' or 'crew' soldier when dealing with heavy equipment within a squad, this to designate the soldier that is carrying it. This include all the weapons that are 'crewed' like for example in the stalingrad mod: light Machine guns, Flamethrowers and AT rifles.
Doing this will avoid the annoying situation where the leader of the squad carrying a crewed weapon, gets said weapon.
Just a minor thing I know, but a step thowards immersion me thinks.
Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:48 pm Post subject: Re: Suggestion to Modders about Soldiers equipment.
Kanovskiy wrote:
Doing this will avoid the annoying situation where the leader of the squad carrying a crewed weapon, gets said weapon.
Why wouldn't you want the leader to get the crewed weapon? In both the German and US armies (probably others too), in a MG team the gunner is the highest ranking member of the team and is also the leader. The gunner should be type "leader" or "asst leader" and the rest of the team "crew", no? Or is there a downside to this in gameplay?
Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: Suggestion to Modders about Soldiers equipment.
dreaded88 wrote:
Kanovskiy wrote:
Doing this will avoid the annoying situation where the leader of the squad carrying a crewed weapon, gets said weapon.
Why wouldn't you want the leader to get the crewed weapon? In both the German and US armies (probably others too), in a MG team the gunner is the highest ranking member of the team and is also the leader. The gunner should be type "leader" or "asst leader" and the rest of the team "crew", no? Or is there a downside to this in gameplay?
I dont think you are correct Dreaded88. I can definetly speak for current times, but cannot speak accurately for WW2 era. Usually the section support weapons were assigned to anyone but the leader or 2 IC.
What happens in CC is that your leader lags behind his own team if he has the MG. This singles him out and makes him very vulnerable. For example... 7 man team running acros open terrain. Leader, with mg, lags behind, the other 6 section members get on position and you tell them to go into ambush. the leader who is way behind and fatigued starts crawling into position, taking forever for him to reach the position and is leftr in the open while the section is preparing for action.
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Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: Suggestion to Modders about Soldiers equipment.
mooxe wrote:
I dont think you are correct Dreaded88. I can definetly speak for current times, but cannot speak accurately for WW2 era. Usually the section support weapons were assigned to anyone but the leader or 2 IC.
What happens in CC is that your leader lags behind his own team if he has the MG. This singles him out and makes him very vulnerable. For example... 7 man team running acros open terrain. Leader, with mg, lags behind, the other 6 section members get on position and you tell them to go into ambush. the leader who is way behind and fatigued starts crawling into position, taking forever for him to reach the position and is leftr in the open while the section is preparing for action.
I'm thinking more in terms of the 2-3 man MG team rather than the full squad. According to Buchner: The German Infantry Handbook, 1939-1945 a squad would consist of a leader (Gruppenfuhrer), Gunner1 (second in command) on the MG, a dedicated assistant gunner, and the rest of the squad as riflemen and ammo bearers.
US Army is a little different, a platoon would have 2 3-man MG teams in a separate weapons squad, which would of course be deployed as needed. The squad is headed by a NCO but in each team the gunner is the highest ranking, usually a PFC or Spec4. At least that's how it was 20 years ago in the 82nd Airborne.
Maybe the key is having a seperate AG/ammo bearer in soldiers.txt with higher weight, so they lag behind equally
Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:10 pm Post subject: Re: Suggestion to Modders about Soldiers equipment.
dreaded88 wrote:
According to Buchner: The German Infantry Handbook, 1939-1945 a squad would consist of a leader (Gruppenfuhrer), Gunner1 (second in command) on the MG, a dedicated assistant gunner, and the rest of the squad as riflemen and ammo bearers.
Ok I should know better than to quote from memory. It appears the second in command would be one of the riflemen. The book said something along the lines of "The remaining 6 men of the squad, including the deputy squad leader (Gruppenfuhrer)..."
I read that seeing Gruppenfuhrer and missing "deputy", since it's an odd way to state it since it earlier states the Gruppenfuhrer is the squad leader. So it seems to be an incomplete translation. Gunner 1 was simply the "sharpest-shooter" and there is no mention of rank. Just wanted to set that straight.
So the question is how to translate this into CC. If the 2 or 3 man MG team is given no leader, it may not function as well and might need to be kept near a command team. Which could then leave the rifle section short on leadership during assaults. A good compromise for a German squad might be a 1-man leader team (type 4=commander), 2 man MG team (gunner type 3=asst leader), and 3-4 man rifle team (leader type 1=leader). This leaves some tactical flexibility for defense/assault situations too.
Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:00 am Post subject: mmm
Dreaded88 said
Quote:
Maybe the key is having a seperate AG/ammo bearer in soldiers.txt with higher weight, so they lag behind equally Smile
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 5:02 am Post subject: Re: Suggestion to Modders about Soldiers equipment.
[quote="dreaded88.... A good compromise for a German squad might be a 1-man leader team (type 4=commander), 2 man MG team (gunner type 3=asst leader), and 3-4 man rifle team (leader type 1=leader). This leaves some tactical flexibility for defense/assault situations too.[/quote]
This would screw the rank structure up. You will have a MG team of a Hauptmann and a Obergefreiter.
Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: Suggestion to Modders about Soldiers equipment.
Senior_Drill wrote:
This would screw the rank structure up. You will have a MG team of a Hauptmann and a Obergefreiter.
I'm already using this structure, the MG team starts off as a Gefreiter and Soldat. Because of the kills MG's rack up, after the first op they are usually Obergefreiter and Obersoldat. I think that's ok, the thing I can't decide is if they should both start out as Soldat.
So, setting soldier type to "3" gets you a Gefreiter and "1" gets you an Obergefreiter. For type "4", it depends on the team value. Unless the 1-man Gruppenfuhrer is the only command team, it will probably be an Unterfeldwebel to start.
I was refering more to the infantry squads with heavy weapons than Mg teams.
Like BAR and Sturmpioniere groups on reg CC5, whose leaders get the heavy weapon 90% of the time wich is annoying. My guess is that the BAR and the flamethrower where made 'crewed' because that way when the soldier that is carrying it gets killed, another member of the squad can pick it up, but if you don't specify a designated gunner for a heavy weapon within the squad, the leader gets the weapon by default, again not always but like 90% of the time.
//EDIT: Just to point out that GJS adresses this little bug very well(the gunner gets the Bren/leMG42 and not the leader) but they forgot to fix the german pioniere groups, the ones with the flamethrower.
I think it would be more realistic to make those weapons a primary weapon, at least the flamethrower. Think about it, you are in a firefight and the flame guy gets killed, would you get over him, take off the arness and stuff, and then wear it yourserlf while still beign fired upon and not knowing exactly how it works? OR would you fire back with your current weapon or better yet, get the hell out of there?
but no, with the current flamer status, as soon as the flame guy gets killed another one picks it up instantly.
Ok that makes sense. I ended up having to make my MG teams without a leader anyhow, because even if you assign it to the leader, the crewed weapon goes to the first man set to type crew! This seems to only happen within the game, not in the selection screens. Since the loaded down AG was also getting the MG, he really would lag behind!
I was refering more to the infantry squads with heavy weapons than Mg teams.
Like BAR and Sturmpioniere groups on reg CC5, whose leaders get the heavy weapon 90% of the time wich is annoying. My guess is that the BAR and the flamethrower where made 'crewed' because that way when the soldier that is carrying it gets killed, another member of the squad can pick it up, but if you don't specify a designated gunner for a heavy weapon within the squad, the leader gets the weapon by default, again not always but like 90% of the time.
//EDIT: Just to point out that GJS adresses this little bug very well(the gunner gets the Bren/leMG42 and not the leader) but they forgot to fix the german pioniere groups, the ones with the flamethrower.
I think it would be more realistic to make those weapons a primary weapon, at least the flamethrower. Think about it, you are in a firefight and the flame guy gets killed, would you get over him, take off the arness and stuff, and then wear it yourserlf while still beign fired upon and not knowing exactly how it works? OR would you fire back with your current weapon or better yet, get the hell out of there?
but no, with the current flamer status, as soon as the flame guy gets killed another one picks it up instantly.
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