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Do incapacitations count as a soldier's kills?

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Tippi-Simo

Rep: 53.1
votes: 5


PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:45 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Some pictures.
http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/08/war_in_south_ossetia.html


"Du talar dalig svenska, men du är bra i sängen"
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:58 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Just to make sure my first post wasn't accidentally deleted:

was it?

Quote:
If you have trouble recognizing sarcasm, let's agree I will use the in the future as a sign there's sarcasm involved...

u don't really recognise sarcasm at all?
or how do we call it...uhh...seems double standards Wink.

Quote:
care to share your expert analysis with us on the current situation in the Caucasus (no sarcasm involved here )?

well, if serious:
Putin was in China when all that happened so he called Medvedev and asked:
-What are we doing there, Dima?
-Vova, we just follow the last will of a deadman.
-What will ?
-It was Solzhenitsin last will to enter Gori and remove any trace of Stalin.
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Pete

Rep: 120.2
votes: 12


PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:00 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Dima wrote:
Quote:
Just to make sure my first post wasn't accidentally deleted:

was it?

Quote:
If you have trouble recognizing sarcasm, let's agree I will use the in the future as a sign there's sarcasm involved...

u don't really recognise sarcasm at all?
or how do we call it...uhh...seems double standards Wink.

Quote:
care to share your expert analysis with us on the current situation in the Caucasus (no sarcasm involved here )?

well, if serious:
Putin was in China when all that happened so he called Medvedev and asked:
-What are we doing there, Dima?
-Vova, we just follow the last will of a deadman.
-What will ?
-It was Solzhenitsin last will to enter Gori and remove any trace of Stalin.

A good example of the Russian sense of humour Smile Or is it the wodka speaking? Are the Russians already toasting to their victory and reclaimed self esteem? To quote my female Russian colleague "All that Russian men are good for is war and wodka."
Anyway, this invasion shows that the Russians have a good sense for timing. It amazes me why no-one in this forum seems to have yet noticed the speed and decisiveness with which the Russians are conducting their actions: A complete mechanized brigade invaded South Ossetia within 24hours of the Georgian counter separatist offensive and a day or so later all of a sudden a sea borne invasion takes place in Abkhasia. Where did those fully equipped and prepared units come from all of a sudden? Does this type of deployment not require careful planning? All that Russia needed was an excuse to invade Georgia and with the less than impressive Georgian offensive against the separatists the perfect opportunity presented itself. This explains also why the Georgians were forced to withdraw so quickly. They were simply not prepared for dealing with a Russian opponent.
It looks like the Russians will press on to seize the moment. Surely they can not wait until the Georgian mobilisation is complete and surely they want to put the pressure on as much as possible. The least they want is force Saakashvili to resign and kill any attempts of Georgia joining Nato once and for all. Russia did not particularly appreciate the EU and Nato "anti-slav" Balkan politics. Now it is payback time...


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(War is delightful to those who have no experience of it.)
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Polemarchos

Rep: 27.3


PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:13 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

for all who really want to understand theoretically what is going on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melian_dialogue

read it replace "Athens" with Russia, "Melos" with Georgia and "Sparta" with USA.

some things never change.


To brave men few words are as good as many


Last edited by Polemarchos on Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Polemarchos

Rep: 27.3


PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:31 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete wrote:

"All that Russian men are good for is war and wodka."


stereotype again... i.e. ask her how Tesla or Kolmogorov fits into her thesis

Pete wrote:

Anyway, this invasion shows that the Russians have a good sense for timing.
It amazes me why no-one in this forum seems to have yet noticed the speed and decisiveness with which the Russians are conducting their actions: A complete mechanized brigade invaded South Ossetia within 24hours of the Georgian counter separatist offensive and a day or so later all of a sudden a sea borne invasion takes place in Abkhasia. Where did those fully equipped and prepared units come from all of a sudden? Does this type of deployment not require careful planning?


I guess we wonder too but only to a certain respect...
Western European doctrine about strategic explicitness does not fit reality of the rest of the world. The lack of explicitness represents an inherent feature of strategic thought. Guessing right or wrong about an enemies values or capabilities has extreme effects on conflict outcome. The same lack of explicitness can be found in the insecurity of guessing right about an adversary’s perception of his own values and objectives in war. Same applies for readiness. For instance, Portugal does not need to have troops ready at the border to Spain. In contrast, Syrian troops are ready anytime.
Thus, there is no need to wonder about the preparedness of troops, especially if you consider (1) the closeness of Chechnya and Dagestan were COIN operations were counducted in the last decade, (2) the tension built up since March 2008, (3) the geostrategic importance of the southern flank for Russia and for the non-existent restraint to conduct strategic bombardment against soft targets to enforce coersion. (Here we must acknowledge that even so-called "surgical warfare" equates to barbarism since it aims to crush the will of an opponent and not his physical capacity to stage resistance)


To brave men few words are as good as many
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Roel




PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:06 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

-It was Solzhenitsin last will to enter Gori and remove any trace of Stalin.


Laughing I bet the Russians could sell this to George W : just freeing the world once and for all of another dictator. Although, being in Bejing right now, somebody will need to clarify that Solzhenitsin is not the chicken Szechuan he ordered Smile
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king_tiger_tank

Rep: 0.1


PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:59 am Post subject: Reply with quote

Tippi-Simo wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7552958.stm
Well atleast the Russians do what they do best: targeting civilians.

We have experienced it here in Finland. Who else.. well Chechnya,Afghanistan and the list goes on and on.

But hey, they have oil and gas so who wants to judge them.

also the one thing the U.S. has done since the end of the cold war.


What would H Jones do?
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king_tiger_tank

Rep: 0.1


PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:04 am Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete wrote:

A good example of the Russian sense of humour Smile Or is it the wodka speaking? Are the Russians already toasting to their victory and reclaimed self esteem? To quote my female Russian colleague "All that Russian men are good for is war and wodka."
Anyway, this invasion shows that the Russians have a good sense for timing. It amazes me why no-one in this forum seems to have yet noticed the speed and decisiveness with which the Russians are conducting their actions: A complete mechanized brigade invaded South Ossetia within 24hours of the Georgian counter separatist offensive and a day or so later all of a sudden a sea borne invasion takes place in Abkhasia. Where did those fully equipped and prepared units come from all of a sudden? Does this type of deployment not require careful planning? All that Russia needed was an excuse to invade Georgia and with the less than impressive Georgian offensive against the separatists the perfect opportunity presented itself.


after 2003 nothing surprises me about how prepared a large, developed country can go and beat the shit out of a country half their size, then make a piss-poor excuse of why they attacked.


What would H Jones do?
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schrecken

Rep: 195
votes: 15


PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:29 am Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't want to change the worls I just want some statistics on what destoyed what how and when... and what piece of equipment wasn't effective against what other piece.


Any data anyone?
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:13 am Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, DM have just told on a meeting with Russ Defence Minister that mission is accomplished, agressor was punished, RA ceases fire. ALtho in case of military provokations, enemy will be annihilated.
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Therion

Rep: 27.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: Reply with quote

Reading the news makes me wonder why waging war in civilian areas (including putting military units into them) and attacking/using civilian infrastructure for military purposes isn't a war crime.


Wonderland - my mod for Armored Brigade

Killing for peace is like fucking for orgasm.
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ZAPPI4

Rep: 33.3
votes: 2


PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

For sure, both side think they are right and opponent is the Evil, isnt it?
The most difficult way is:
? Knowing to be the stronger and fighting.
? Knowing to be the stronger and refuse to fight.

Russia must be not happy to "invade" a country around 0.5% of Russia.
Something maybe hidden in this "War"
Is any War declaration by Russia or Georgia?
Osethie is a Georgia area or Russia Area?
Guys we are in the 21Th Century, and the "world" still in own War.
I hope than a day, we will found a way to closed a conflict without army and weapon.


Tout est possible ... il faut juste connaitre quand.
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The most difficult way is:
? Knowing to be the stronger and refuse to fight.

yeah that's why when Russia secured the Russian citizens and PK it has stopped the fiting. Btw in some areas the georgians were smart enuf to drop their weapon, surrender and allow Russian PK to patrol areas again.

Quote:
Russia must be not happy to "invade" a country around 0.5% of Russia.

Russia didn't invade anything.

Quote:
Something maybe hidden in this "War"

maybe that?

Quote:
Is any War declaration by Russia or Georgia?

no.

Quote:
Osethie is a Georgia area or Russia Area?

i will try to be short:
it was under administrative command of GSSR since 1920s.
Georgia cancelled ligitimity of the Soviet Union constitution and laws in 1991 and declared independence according to the Act of Independence of 1918. Neither Ossetia nor Abkhazia belonged to Georgia that time.
SO voted to be independend in 1991.
Georgia attacked SO in 1992. That was ethnical war and alot of cas (more than 2000 for both sides). With help of the Russian Army the war was stopped in 1992.
Since that time joined PK forces (Russian, Georgian and Ossetian) were there. Both nations started to forget their pain and were cooperation with each other pretty ok.
SOssetians didn't get the Georgian Passports as they chose to receive the Russian Passports (as they were citizens of USSR they could receive it for easily).
That's it.
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Therion

Rep: 27.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Dima wrote:
Quote:
Something maybe hidden in this "War"

maybe that?

Great. Another war.

So, what are you suggesting? That Russia tries to show it's strength or that USA is using Georgia as a distraction?


Wonderland - my mod for Armored Brigade

Killing for peace is like fucking for orgasm.
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ZAPPI4

Rep: 33.3
votes: 2


PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:20 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

if i dont miss something ...

Russia Helping SO against invader Georgia (and his possible "hidden allies").
After the end of the "War", after weeks, month or so, SO may be "annexed" by Russia?
Or After the end ... , SO may be helped by Russia to stay "independant"?
U right i made mistake ...Russia didnt invade Georgia.
They just dropped bomb and using gun to firing Georgian position in Georgian ground.
And as it seems they helped SO , it's natural.


Between, did Staline was born somewhere in actual Georgia?


Tout est possible ... il faut juste connaitre quand.
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ZAPPI4

Rep: 33.3
votes: 2


PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

USA Distraction?

How can you be discret when u began a WAR, u win the war and keep control of the country
when the war is ended since many years?

I doubt than USA wanted any distraction there. If they want something that's more
something like to be close to the heart of their "cold war" friend.
But well; Cold war is end since many years, isnt it?


Tout est possible ... il faut juste connaitre quand.
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rouge5

Rep: 0.1


PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't believe the Cold War ever ended.
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Pzt_Mac

Rep: 3.4


PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:49 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

This doesn't have anything to do with the US, at least not in the way that has been mentioned (i.e. Iran). Russia thinks Georgia belongs to them, Georgia doesn't think they do. Russia wanted a reason to invade, and apparently they got enough of one to do so.

Georgia has major oil and natural gas pipelines running through their country, and they are a Democratically elected government. This adds up to Western support for Georgia. This has also angered Russia.

[quote="Dima"]
Quote:

yeah that's why when Russia secured the Russian citizens and PK it has stopped the fiting. Btw in some areas the georgians were smart enuf to drop their weapon, surrender and allow Russian PK to patrol areas again.


Just because the PM says so - doesn't make it true. Journalist in the area were still covering bombings and fighting between the forces far outside of the "disputed" zone after Russia said they had stopped.

Also, asking a country to lay down all of their arms is one hell of a request Razz I don't care who you are or how bad your getting your ass kicked. I don't know any country who would do that at this point.

I don't think the West will come to Georgia's aid right now, not unless they want a World War. The other Balkan states however... they might just be the key to all of this is they can unite. Otherwise, why would Russia just stop with Georgia? They have laid claim to all of the former satellite countries, so what's to stop them?
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Polemarchos

Rep: 27.3


PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:57 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Pzt_Mac wrote:
The other Balkan states however... they might just be the key to all of this is they can unite. Otherwise, why would Russia just stop with Georgia? They have laid claim to all of the former satellite countries, so what's to stop them?


balkans? you mean caucasus

No way. Russia has defense alliance with Armenia and Iran. Turkey is Nato member and has defense alliance with Azerbaijan. Russia stopped, that is just some nailling for Georgia to know who dicatates the upcoming treaty.


To brave men few words are as good as many
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Pole, u didn't understand, Mac messed Balkans and Caucauses - same for him, far away and inhabited with aborigens Smile.
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