the pics you show are from the Ljotic Group which represent 3-5% of the Chetnik movement. as Croatian you know that your folks used same kind of barbarism, and in fact started it in WW2. I dont defend any of these actions, but it is strange that a Croat points out Serb barbarism when it was the Croats that inflicted the larger margin of civilian murders during 1941-1945.
And dont forget, in the end they all died together(Ustasha and Chetniks) in Slovenia.
read here:
Manoschek, Walter: Serbien ist Judenfrei. Militärische Besatzungspolitik und Judenvernichtung in Serbien 1941/42. Schriftreihe des Militärgeschichtlichen Forschungsamtes Vol. 38, München: Oldenburg 1985.
the pics you show are from the Ljotic Group which represent 3-5% of the Chetnik movement. as Croatian you know that your folks used same kind of barbarism, and in fact started it in WW2. I dont defend any of these actions, but it is strange that a Croat points out Serb barbarism when it was the Croats that inflicted the larger margin of civilian murders during 1941-1945.
And dont forget, in the end they all died together(Ustasha and Chetniks) in Slovenia.
read here:
Manoschek, Walter: Serbien ist Judenfrei. Militärische Besatzungspolitik und Judenvernichtung in Serbien 1941/42. Schriftreihe des Militärgeschichtlichen Forschungsamtes Vol. 38, München: Oldenburg 1985.
Not quite true, especially about Chetnik movement...what do you know except you have read some books about it, and who knows from whom..
First of all what about Ustase regiment living peacefully with whole Chetnik Dinara Corps in Croatia near Knin (if you don't know, those chetniks were Croatian citizens - called militia in fascist Croatian goverment), and what about Croatian partisan brigades....? Specially Dalmatian brigades 90% Croatian population... For instance look at the 4th axis offensive (the battle of Neretva), how many croatian partisan brigades were involved in battle, look how many chetniks fought against them on axis side.
7th Banija Division (joined later) also Croatian
9th Dalmatian Division (joined later) also Croatian
The point is that Ustase and Chetniks worked together along with Germans and Italians against partisans, which were almost equaly joined by serbs and croatians if you look statistically. Not to forget that Serbs were and still are almost twice numerous than Croatians.
I know that Greek people have special simpathy for the Serbs, like French too. Probably because you are both ortodox christians who fought togeteher in 1 war, but to speak about Croatians like nazis is stupid, I personally had 3 members of familly fighting in Tito's partisans, who was btw half Croatian, half Slovenien. Born Croatian.
So, in the end i have to say, i'm sorry but you people don't know anything about 2ww in yugoslavia. You don't know about Kingdom of Yugoslavia 1918 - 1941, and represion of Serbian King towards Croatians, and Croatian desire for a country of their own, long time ago lost. Lost since 1102. since Croatian Hungarian deal of union kingdom, lost from fighting against Osman Empire. In Vatican, pope Leo X in 1519. Croatian Kingdom called ''Antemurale Christianitatis'' or bulwark of Christianity (along with other nations fighting Turks - Hungarians, Germans), Croatia called 16th and 17th century "duo plorantes saecula Croatiae" or two weeping centuries of Croatia. It was pain and struggle for survival over centuries..and now Croatia is called fascist, bollocks!!
You sholud check your feelings my friend..
No offence to anyone, no war to anyone, no pain and tears for anyone, just PEACE to everyone
Not quite true, especially about Chetnik movement...what do you know except you have read some books about it, and who knows from whom..
my favorite ad personam again...
Well i dont read books, i study german military documents, That's i why pointed out to read for example Manoschek's work which is a doctoral thesis.
mochoho wrote:
First of all what about Ustase regiment living peacefully with whole Chetnik Dinara Corps in Croatia near Knin (if you don't know, those chetniks were Croatian citizens - called militia in fascist Croatian goverment), and what about Croatian partisan brigades....?
I didnt state anywhere in my post that "all" Croats were Ustasha. I didnt state the Croats didnt resist against Axis as well.
Schmider, Klaus: Partisanenkrieg in Jugoslawien 1941-1944. Hamburg/Berlin/Bonn: Mittler 2002.
mochoho wrote:
The point is that Ustase and Chetniks worked together along with Germans and Italians against partisans, which were almost equaly joined by serbs and croatians if you look statistically. Not to forget that Serbs were and still are almost twice numerous than Croatians.
Ustashe worked with Germans and fought Italians because of Dalmatia. Chetniks were armed by Italians to fight Communists, but Germans disliked the idea to form militias and attacked them more often in 1941-1942.
In Weiss I-III Germans disarmed Chetnics,while Italians allowed to escape.
Generally it is observeable that the Chetniks fought alongside Axis only when Italians were close enough to cover their retreat by turning a blind eye on German demands. Only in 1944 were it became clear that the Communists were the real menace for the Chetniks they joined the Axis for real (at that time Allies had seized supply of Mihailovic). Despite that in the winter if 1944 and in 1945 Germans often observed Chetnik vs. Ustashe battles in Croatia within their own frontline.
mochoho wrote:
I know that Greek people have special simpathy for the Serbs, like French too. Probably because you are both ortodox christians who fought togeteher in 1 war, but to speak about Croatians like nazis is stupid, I personally had 3 members of familly fighting in Tito's partisans, who was btw half Croatian, half Slovenien. Born Croatian.
I am not biased, it is called academic objectivity.
mochoho wrote:
So, in the end i have to say, i'm sorry but you people don't know anything about 2ww in yugoslavia. You don't know about Kingdom of Yugoslavia 1918 - 1941, and represion of Serbian King towards Croatians, and Croatian desire for a country of their own, long time ago lost.
i know that i dont know, thats more than claiming to know.
mochoho wrote:
Lost since 1102. since Croatian Hungarian deal of union kingdom, lost from fighting against Osman Empire. In Vatican, pope Leo X in 1519. Croatian Kingdom called ''Antemurale Christianitatis'' or bulwark of Christianity (along with other nations fighting Turks - Hungarians, Germans), Croatia called 16th and 17th century "duo plorantes saecula Croatiae" or two weeping centuries of Croatia. It was pain and struggle for survival over centuries..and now Croatia is called fascist, bollocks!!
i am well aware of both the ethno-genesis and history of Croatia, thanks for the details though.
mochoho wrote:
You sholud check your feelings my friend..
there were not hurt. In fact, i like talking about history emotionless.
Thing is events effect people emotionally, that's why they react the way they do.
valid
schrecken wrote:
Trying to analyze historical texts in a disembodied emotionless state is one of the great failures of many would be historians.
not texts but documents. Today only synoptic approaches meet scientific standards of comprehension. One starts to collect quantitative data hoping to find a correlation and then evaluates qualitatively in order to test its causality. If one leaves the abstract an argument get weaker against criticism.
schrecken wrote:
It's the stirring of emotions that makes great things happen and conversly wreaks havoc upon the world.
maybe. but it may also be a systemic causality we are yet to discover.
there are quantum mechanics theories applied to human behavior.
Check here: 'Social Theory' as Cartesian Science: An Auto-Critique from a Quantum Perspective." 2006 In 'Constructivism and International Relations', edited by Stefano Guzzini and Anna Leander. London: Routledge.
schrecken wrote:
end Lesson #1
can i have the background guide to the lecture?
thanks in advance
i will reply to you soon about doctoral thesis. The documents are relevant about ustase - chetnik cooperation. Documents are held in Croatian and Serbian national archive that are now available for public. Also i will post these documents in original form and try to translate them in english.
So, you will see that some doctoral thesis is just thesis of some western misguided person who thinks that german archive is precise. It's not, people who lived here know better what happened back there. Also, you said that lot of chetniks ended their lives in Bleiburg and some other mass graves produced by communist in the end of the war. That also is just a half way truth. Great number of those people ended at the end of the war as partisans, switching uniforms unlike croatian ustase. As croatians, many people had to serve croatian regular army (Domobrans - home deffence), well, lot of those guys switched uniforms and went over to partisans. My grandfather was Domobran when he deserted over partisans in spring 1943. He ended war as a sergeant in Yuoslavian Peoples Army liberating Belgrade, Zagreb and Trieste.
I'm not so emotional as I'm mad when i here such nonsence...
i will reply to you soon about doctoral thesis. The documents are relevant about ustase - chetnik cooperation. Documents are held in Croatian and Serbian national archive that are now available for public. Also i will post these documents in original form and try to translate them in english.
awesome! Please use the Antikrates section and give it a new thread.
I would be very happy if you contribute regularly scans or other data about your studies. Thats why I asked mooxe to create the section here.
mochoho wrote:
So, you will see that some doctoral thesis is just thesis of some western misguided person who thinks that german archive is precise. It's not, people who lived here know better what happened back there. Also, you said that lot of chetniks ended their lives in Bleiburg and some other mass graves produced by communist in the end of the war. That also is just a half way truth. Great number of those people ended at the end of the war as partisans, switching uniforms unlike croatian ustase. As croatians, many people had to serve croatian regular army (Domobrans - home deffence), well, lot of those guys switched uniforms and went over to partisans. My grandfather was Domobran when he deserted over partisans in spring 1943. He ended war as a sergeant in Yuoslavian Peoples Army liberating Belgrade, Zagreb and Trieste. [
I'm not so emotional as I'm mad when i here such nonsence...
Haire !
good. I appreciate that. Exchange of thoughts without emotions is the best way of learning.
Polemarchos, also ustase did not fought Italians over Dalmatia, Croatian partisans did. Ante Pavelic, gave parts of Dalmatia to Mussolini, Italians accused for war crimes in Dalmatia never ending up in a prison. Because, they surrendered 1943 and switched to allies. BUUUA for allies, they did that in 1 war, when they promised parts of Dalmatia to Italy. Chetniks fighting Ustase was happening almost by default in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Like in our latest war, Croatians and Bosnians (Muslims) on one side and Serbs on other side.
Also i will post, about Serbian Kings repression towards Croatia in 1918 - 1941, killing Croatians who were too much politically (peaceful) involved in Croatian freedom (Stjepan Radic for instance). Serbian politics about Croatians going over every decent limit ended in killing Serbian King Aleksandar I. Karadjordjevic in Marseilles 1934. That assassination did ustase movement as you can see before the 2 war. I don't approve their method but that was logical as we can see similar movements all around the world. It was terrorist act.
Chetniks fighting Ustase was happening almost by default in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Like in our latest war, Croatians and Bosnians (Muslims) on one side and Serbs on other side.
I have to correct myself, ustase and chetniks almost never fought each other, they fought together against partisans. There will be a topic about ustase and chetniks in ww2 Ex-Yugoslavia
What is interesting now is to know what the best historical knowers like Mooxe think about it. They came once in the Balkans following a guide showwing them what was "true" or "the reality".
10000% of these people are out of Europe and are just ignorants.
Shame on them
Nuuye
I am a special forum troll. My only purpose is to disrupt conversations with meaningless french surrender talk.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum You cannot attach files in this forum You can download files in this forum
In August of 2004, Zappi, Homba, Bambam887, RedScorpion and MOOXE all pitched
in to create this Close Combat site. I would to thank all the people who have visited
and found this site to thier liking. I hope you had time to check out some
of the great Close Combat mods and our forums. I'd also like to thank
all the members of our volunteer staff that have helped over
the years, and all our users that contributed to this site!
. Washington D.C.: United States Army. Available at: 
