Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:37 am Post subject: Socialized Healthcare
Been following the USA's route on this.
Here in Canada its socialized. If I have a heartattack, any type of disease.. etc etc it costs me nothing. Costs nothing for my wife to have a baby in a hospital. Its great knowing that something that costs sooooo much is covered by my government. I really can't understand (aside from money reason) why anyone in states would object to some sort of government funded insurance or fully socialized system.
The protests against this system are wilder then the anti war protests we seen for Iraq. Whats the deal Americans? Why dont you want free or cheaper healthcare?
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Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:24 am Post subject: Re: Socialized Healthcare
I also don't understand it
The reason of being against is probably money
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Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:27 am Post subject: Re: Socialized Healthcare
On the surface, it doesn't make much sense, why would the general population actively fight against their own best interest ?
The reasons are really complicated, but most of it boils down to these facts:
Corporations have all the rights of a citizen. (first amendment ect.) That precludes ever finding a way to get corporate money out of the political process. (that would be violatiing thier right to representation )
Since money wins campaigns and real money comes from corporations. The politicians ignore their constituents and do what the fundraisers tell them to do. Otherwise the fundraisers will just back somebody else next election cycle. no big money, no congressional seat. The 2/3 of congress that are fighting against public healthcare are pretty much corporate whores.(for the healthcare/pharma industry) The money trail is not hidden in any way. The other component boils down to racists (will do anything to go against Obama) and dumb people. Most of the country wants public healthcare like canada, but they are a silent majority, its the crazies and tinfoil-hatters that are getting all the media time because its sensationalist. Because news media is also a business first. The ones with the craziest jabber are who are getting all the air time. It gives the impression that there is more opposition to healthcare reform than there really is.
Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:26 pm Post subject: Re: Socialized Healthcare
Just to expand a little on what Spinlock said...
There is a strong minority of extreme right wing folks who are out to stop anything Obama does at any cost, no matter the consequences (i.e. not allowing health care for the poor, uninsured, etc.). Because these people are so well funded, they are able to do these mass market campaigns to appeal to the lowest base of the Republican party (i.e. racists, uneducated, extremely religious, etc.) and work their way into the more popular media outlets (i.e. Fox News) to hit the moderate and centrist Republican groups.
The truth is the vast majority of Americans want public health care, just like we have public schools, medicare/medicaid etc. But corporations, allied with the fanatical extreme right, are trying to bend congress to its will. Why? Money and power, as usual.
Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: Socialized Healthcare
It's refreshing to hear opinions from outside the US about this. I'll admit my own outlook on this is cynical, but it seems that most here in America adhere to a "follow the crowd" mentality on nearly every issue rather than thinking for themselves.This is reinforced daily by the extremist pundits and corporate media outlets. Some have allowed themselves to be convinced that socialized medicine equates to socialism which might as well be communism in their eyes.
They believe they will have to wait in long lines to see a doctor or wait months for an operation. The irony is, most of them don't realize that their expensive private insurance is very likely to find a reason to deny their legitimate claim in order to conserve profits for the company. I know this after being involved in the health insurance business several years ago. The movie Sicko also provides some accurate examples of this.
I support efforts to reform healthcare in the US. I can't think of any country that has it where the citizens would willingly go back to paying for it out of their own pockets. The special interests here make this a very difficult proposition. It's ironic that the "freest" people in the world have become so dumbed down and allow themselves to be led by the nose so easily.
Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: Socialized Healthcare
Where is the USA going to get the money for this? Dont you know that the USA is bankrupt? besides that the healtcare wont get any better.
The money that is now used to cover the insured citizens`s is going to be spread over the whole population including the illigal immigrants etc. and how is the same money going to give better healtcare when it covers more people?
Im not pro or con the new idea it just needs better thought and USA people need to know whats in the 1000 + pages bill and most politician`s (senate/congress) dont know shit about whats in it. I advice the USA commenters to realy investigate.
Please read this short article: http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/barry/2009/0911.html
Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: Socialized Healthcare
So have anything happened to you or your relatives which have a sosialized wealth care?
SHC is ineffective. Long queues and the attitude and quality of the "care" is awful.
That´s why I have also an insurance.
SHC is good for those who don´t want to make any effort in life and waiting free meal for everyday.
Maybe it´s the time that have changed my opinions about countries like mine where students and workers are the lowest filth on earth.
Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: Socialized Healthcare
I find it interesting that when it comes to something like health care, people suddenly ask, "where's the money?" But when it comes to invading a country like Iraq, congress starts writing blank checks with no oversight, and we end up 9 trillion dollars in debt.
The money for health care reform comes from balancing the current budget - i.e. cutting excessive spending. If there is going to be outrage about spending money for health care, I would also like to see some outrage for the lack of funding for our public education system. Just this years local schools in my state cut the school year by several days, teachers worked a day free of charge - with no cost of living increase (for the second year in a row), and programs like art, music, some sports, and after school activities have been eliminated.
Our priorities in the U.S. have been seriously compromised over the past fifty or so years by corporate interests.
The public option, which gives affordable health care to those in need, will not be the only option. The reason the right wing pundits (like Jennifer Barry in the article link listed above) say that it will be is to scare people into thinking the whole country is going Socialist. A government run health program simply offers an alternative to the plans that are already out there, and that everyone can choose freely. No one, not the government, not anyone, will ever force you to choose one or the other - even if you loose your job, or move, or whatever other lies they try to scare you with.
The insurance companies should be the ones scared right now - they've overcharged us, cut our coverage, and denied our claims for years. Now they want to cry when our government, a government that should be protecting us against abuses, comes to aid it's citizens? Yeah, I don't feel sorry for them in the slightest.
A government option for health care is just that, an option. You don't want it? Don't buy it. But don't deny someone who needs it because of right wing propaganda.
I find it interesting that when it comes to something like health care, people suddenly ask, "where's the money?" But when it comes to invading a country like Iraq, congress starts writing blank checks with no oversight, and we end up 9 trillion dollars in debt.
Exactly.
I think once Obama gets this implemented the crying will die down, then people will realize just how great it is to have this umbrella of protection over them.
I watched his speech and read some of the stats rolling in the ticker. 62% of bankruptcies in the USA are because of medical bills, wow. 45 million people went without coverage for a length of time in the year 2008.
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Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:19 pm Post subject: Re: Socialized Healthcare
I haven't read what the US health care bill is (is it even out of committee yet?) but have followed the agi-prop and counter agi-prop reports. For those non-US types that view the whole debate in wonderment, bear in mind that a large proportion of Americans dislike government intrusions into our lives. Words and concepts like "taxation", "regulation", "entitlement" and "mandatory" trigger fighting responses, both for and against in us. Thus the widly-eyed rants and blantent media hype.
Be assured that the vast majority of us are looking at the issues and watching our elected legislators votes. The most liberal of us that want free health care for all know that that can not happen now. Our society is just not ready for that. And even the most conservative of us recognize that something needs to be done to halt and even roll back the unreasonable spike in health care costs in the last decade. Dichotomies arise when an ardent supporter of low cost health care has his stock portfolio heavily invested in insurance or pharmaceutical stocks ... robbing Peter to pay Paul could be coming right out of your retirement fund. A complex issue, to say the least, for the US.
One of the proposals that will never see the light of law was the $3800 penalty for not having some form or health insurance. Who thought up that one, fer crying out loud? Dun low income families for not being able to afford a $250 monthly premium? Insantity! Dudes, I've been on both sides of the economic fence, with a medical condition. Doing fine with great insurance and out of work with no insurance. The concept of fining me what amounts to $316 a month for not being able to pay $200 a month while struggling to pay the rent, keep the lights on and have something to eat on the table each day is total insanity. Welfare is better than that, at least it covers all medical expenses, including prescription meds. If you and your family are just getting by, what is the insentive? I now have a good job with so-so health coverage. My condition is contained and improving with insurance covering most of it. Co-pay can be your friend or it can be your enemy. The insurance that I have now, I have paid into to the tune of over $5200 year to date. It will be pushing $7300 by years end. (Gotta do something different about Dental. One root canal and fillings for my daughter wiped out the family plan for a year's worth plus $500 out of pocket. Nothing left for the frau and me except cash on the barrel head.)
One step at a time is the way the US will resolve this. All except the small minority heavily invested in the medical stocks will be effected in the long run, but even they will have some form of subsidiezed health care. Socialized medicine in the US? Not in my lifetime, which according to actuary tables, could be between 15 to 25 more years. After that, I don't give a rat's ass.
The insurance companies should be the ones scared right now - they've overcharged us, cut our coverage, and denied our claims for years. Now they want to cry when our government, a government that should be protecting us against abuses, comes to aid it's citizens? Yeah, I don't feel sorry for them in the slightest.
Couldn't agree with you more, here in Britain the Insurance companies took over part of the provision of pensions back in the 'Golden era' of Thatchers eighties and a mighty fine mess they have made of it, their greed for excessive profits lead to several going bust....who was the loser then?....to give you a clue you won't find the streets of London covered with destitute insurance company execs, but there's a hell of a lot of people now wondering how they are going to manage in their senior years.
As to the question of cost, maybe like the British govt. did in 1945 when Atlee set up the welfare state, some things like overseas expansion, be it military or corporate will have to be shelved.......sure it was great to have an empire that covered 1/3 rd of the worlds land mass, but it wasn't much consolation to the children born and raised in poverty, denied proper health care that lived (if they survived long enough) in some of that empires greatest cities.
Thankfully those days are now past and we in this country now have one of the best health care systems going, anyone can visit a doctors with a complaint and within a few weeks be referred to one of the top London hospitals and seen by a senior consultant. All this is paid for by a small stoppage from your income which goes direct to Govt. (the people who we elect) not to some 3rd party.
Yes you will get people who abuse the system, but that happens in all systems, as we have recently seen in the international banking world recently, and in reality it amounts to very little of the total budget in any case.
The United States lead the world when it came into being back in the 18th century, with its regard to the rights of man, so maybe its time again to pose the question......'Does the state exist for the benefit of its citizens or do the citizens exist for the benefit of the state'
Only the American people as a whole can supply their own answer to that.
I find it interesting that when it comes to something like health care, people suddenly ask, "where's the money?" But when it comes to invading a country like Iraq, congress starts writing blank checks with no oversight, and we end up 9 trillion dollars in debt.
Exactly.
I think once Obama gets this implemented the crying will die down, then people will realize just how great it is to have this umbrella of protection over them.
I watched his speech and read some of the stats rolling in the ticker. 62% of bankruptcies in the USA are because of medical bills, wow. 45 million people went without coverage for a length of time in the year 2008.
Its an old post, just now saw it and could not resist.
1. In the USA 95% of a persons lifetime medical costs, occur (on average) in the last 90 days of life. This was certainly the case with my mother and my father.
2. People mainly go bankrupt because they insist on dying in a hospital or hospice. And once you are admitted the hospital will insure that the costs overrun the limitations of your coverage.
3. Socialized health care is good for the meek, the stupid, and the impoverished, or other people, that somehow could not figure out how to provide "the umbrella of protection" for themselves.
4. Its been estimated that as much as 87% percent of health care costs are unnecessary in the fist place. Depends on the source, and I have seen varying estimates. People have and continue to seek treatment for hangnails, as an example. Or they run their babies to the the emergency room when their fever rises above 102 degrees. Or they go to the doctor when they have a viral flu.
5. My next door neighbor is a practicing MD, and he gets rich "treating" sick kids that will recover in the next fews days, even if they were not treated at all. Its the 21st century, people are weak minded.
3. Socialized health care is good for the meek, the stupid, and the impoverished, or other people, that somehow could not figure out how to provide "the umbrella of protection" for themselves.
By that theory... if you recieve anything from your government you are meek, impovrished and stupid.
Whos defending your right to freedom? Can't do it yourself? Cant afford your own army? I guess you are too stupid to figure out how to make enough money for that.
Are your children getting educated up to high school? I guess the government is paying for those schools because you are too stupid to teach your own kids.
Who's highways are you driving on? Certainly not the ones you built.
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3. Socialized health care is good for the meek, the stupid, and the impoverished, or other people, that somehow could not figure out how to provide "the umbrella of protection" for themselves.
By that theory... if you recieve anything from your government you are meek, impovrished and stupid.
Whos defending your right to freedom? Can't do it yourself? Cant afford your own army? I guess you are too stupid to figure out how to make enough money for that.
Are your children getting educated up to high school? I guess the government is paying for those schools because you are too stupid to teach your own kids.
Who's highways are you driving on? Certainly not the ones you built.
Now, mooxe, you're a Canadien, so I wouldn't expect you to know too much about freedom, education, or roads, as it is in the USA.
But lets start with freedom. In a socialized world, you can expect the following:
1. The government will pay for your birth and your death.
2. The government will pay for your secondary education and subsidize most higher education, like college, etc.
3. The government will subsidize and/or insure your mortgage payments. They will also make your payements for you, if you cannot.
4. The government will pay your medical bills when you get sick.
5. The government will provide your job, and give you money when you are unemployed. They will pay for your job training too.
6. The government will tell you what drugs you should take, and what food you should eat.
7. The government will help you find a spouse or significant other.
OK, that should do it. There is really not much left after this, eh? So, basically , your freedom and your right to self detemination, has be forfeited to the government, which in the case of the USA, is your next door neighbors.
In time, your neighbors, will become disenchanted with you, and they might, for instance, decide WHEN you should die. The might pay for it, but you never know for sure, do ya So, you see, you don't really need an ARMY.
Regarding education, the government is just telling you they are educating your children. Most post graduation tests prove otherwise.
Regarding roads, most of the ones I drive on everyday, were built and payed for by private land developers, without any government assistance. The interstate highway system being a noticable exception, is in total disrepair.
Regarding education, the government is just telling you they are educating your children. Most post graduation tests prove otherwise.
You can't educate someone more than he is interested in getting educated. If kids want to get educated for 2s and 3s, it's abvious that they won't get 5s and 6s on graduation tests.
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