Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 2:12 pm Post subject: Interest to game test a what if mod?
First H2H game tries with "Fall Sverige" To evaluate and fined errors in weapons etc.
I need someone/s who are interested in participating when/if you have time over for a game now and then.
In real life the following happened:
FS is based on the Germans plan to assault Sweden in 1943, Germans was not pleased with Sweden's canceling and ending the transit of Germans troops and weapons over Swedish railroads to Finland and Norway.
Sweden also had announced they would lower the amount of Iron ore available for export to Germany. As Sweden's ore was crucial to Germans war effort, 50% of there iron came from Sweden.
This dint go down well with Hitler.
Adolf Von Schnell, was sent to Norway to make preparation, he was to build up a small assault force, consisting of 5 to 6 divisions, one of them a Pz div, it was the 25th Pz Div (that would be much bigger than a standard Pz Div).
The buildup was rather fast but according to Adolf they never reached the strength he considered necessary for success and for initiating the assault. At the fall 1943 a impressive force had been built up consisting of 400 tanx, and 200 Stugs and numerous HTs and such.
But In numbers Germans tanx were never exceeding the Swedish, though Germans tanx had better guns.
When the plan was canceled main PART of this force was then moved to Normandy, and later East Front.
It was a race of time, as Sweden's buildup had been in high gear for many years. Obviously the Germans would probably walk right over Sweden if the Germans dint have all the other "problems at the time", obvious examples: East front, Italy, and buildup of Atlantic wall that draw resources like a endless black hole.
Sweden had at this time about 180 infantry battalions (some under buildup), and 10 mec, and 5.5 tanx battalions. Added to this was the border units and home guard. In all 600.000 men, of whom 400.000 was "well" trained and adapted to the climate and terrain in Sweden, in some arias specially in small arms (SMG/AG), Sweden were well equipped.
Here the what if starts:
In my mod the buildup continues of Germans troops and tanx, and in early 1944 Schnell launches the assault.
Germans has at this time a advantage in tanks (fictionally, never happened in reality). Numbers of tanx in mod is 300 vs 250,thats 6 to 5 in German advantage. The Swedish tanks had good armoure, but was under gunned.
******
Help wanted,
I need someone who would have some interest in H2H test the units against each others.
I would prefer if only people with a genuine CC interest ask me for CD, as I have to send it by mail.
If you are interested, I send a CD with the files in it, and maybe the "plug in" works (im not using plug in my self so i don't know and i have not tried it). If it the plug in dont work, u have to do a manual install, where u make a copy of the "CC5 reg" folder, and copy the files you get from me into that folder, and replace the reg files...
Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 3:05 pm Post subject: mmm
ill give ya a hand if u like.
as long as i can be germans,so i can invade sweeden
Forget words,actions will show your true ambitions!The Battlefield,In many cases, the terrain of a battlefield can be the best resource a commander has. A clump of trees, an abandoned house, or a drainage ditch can all be powerful tools in the right hands
Posted: Tue May 24, 2005 8:35 pm Post subject: yeeee !!!
Perfect L4W, I would really want your experience in this.
Please send me a PM here, with your post address and the CD will be sent ASAP.
Stalky
PS, Yes you can be German, I would just love try the Sweden troopers!
Something that you might be able to help me with. Been trying to find data on the Landsverk L-120. The Norwegins purchased one from Sweden before the war. Although it didn't see combat, I intend to put it into the mod so that players can make what if senarios. Most importantly I'm looking for overhead plans.
Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 10:22 am Post subject: Hello
Hej Granne
1. Well the L-120 was never adopted in Swedens army, we orderd a trile example, but it was cansled there for never delivred.
Sweden whent with the L-60 instead, military named m/38 - 39 - 40L - 40K depending on what verison it was.
Norway was not nearly as well prepared as sweden was.
The mod sounds great ! New Swedish units like tanks etc. which havent been seen in CC before.
Interesting point historically, that Sweden was saved by its defense strength from the Germans while Norway was occupied for 5(?) years. Sweden has been the worlds' poster-boy for non-aggressive military force ever since.
Norway was not nearly as well prepared as sweden was.
The mod sounds great ! New Swedish units like tanks etc. which havent been seen in CC before.
Interesting point historically, that Sweden was saved by its defense strength from the Germans while Norway was occupied for 5(?) years. Sweden has been the worlds' poster-boy for non-aggressive military force ever since.
Grunt
nah, sweden wasnt saved coz of its defense capabilities. nazi germany got exactly mostly everything they needed from sweden, our ore, use of our railroads for troops. in summer 41 just before barbarossa Karl Schnurre the nazi ambassador to sweden demanded theyd transfer entire division engelbrekt from norway to finland, they also demanded use of tele coms, use of airports, use of harbours for german warships etc etc. hitler definitely thought sweden had joined his forces albeit silently. in the end sweden allowed transfer of this division, but stayed neutral and dint allow the other things. germany got what was most important in the war effort, and i think it was too late for germany then to do invasion of sweden coz they were too preoccupied with the destruction of bolshevist russia. think swedish gvt did this to help the finns somehow who were allies to germany tho.
germany would have crushed sweden for sure if they really needed to, but why put effort there when they got what they wanted from sweden strategically. we were surrounded by nazi powers anyway.
hey AT_Stalky i will help you test your mod if you need more than one tester of if mabye lord4war cant make it one time or something. just let me know.
Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 9:55 pm Post subject: Good day men
1. Hedges, i would be gratefull for your help, plz PM me your post adress and a CD will be sent.
About RS reply here:
RS say "nazi germany got exactly mostly everything they needed from sweden, our ore, use of our railroads for troops" "germany would have crushed sweden for sure if they really needed to, but why put effort there when they got what they wanted from sweden strategically. we were surrounded by nazi powers anyway".
Well, I would disagree with you on much there RS,
A. "Germans crouch Sweden" in late 1943-44"?
Hmm, Germans had much to do, in many places and that cant be put to the side as something minor that's not effected the whole war and outcome of it. Russian front was collapsing and retreat was the way to go for Germans, the Russian front was a endless black hole of resource waste for Germans. Africa had turned to hot, and a German army was captured. Italian had been "invaded", that demanded troops presents, witch was not in sufficient numbers or strength to kick UK/US out. The Atlantic beaches (form border to Spain to Narvik in Norway (that some length to cover)) was to be defended, as it was rather sure a invasion would come in 1944. And by look at the troops available for that task, its Ost-.trupps, and old men divisions who had to be used to fill the ever bigger gaps, lack of material in almost all divisions, except in a few. With what would they "crouch" Sweden with (if they wanted? It sounds so easy when u say it?)? Von Schnells plan, IMO "was a down to earth plan", as realistic in its hope for what he can expect and hope to receive in soldiers and material from a hard cornered and tired Germany. And not even his humble request for 5-6 division was NOT FULLY realized, his request for tanx was NOT FULLY for filled.
The buildup for the planed assault was frantic:
in March 1943 the 25th Pz had 11.000 men, and 40 - H39 tanx, 15 - S35 tanx.
In June it had grown to 21.000 men and 40 - H39, 15 - S35, 16 - Mk4, 41 - Mk3 and numerous HT and guns.
In September, the force was almost 100 - Mk3 and 26+ Mk4, and 200 Stugs with aditional French tanx in all 600 tanx/stugs,
The buildup tells how "much" Germans prioritized the plan for assault Swedes, so the will and need was obviously there. In the mod the buildup continue, and Von Schnell get the force he want, but was that enough? We might see when the mod is ready.
B. "crushed Sweden for sure if they really needed to"?
Needed to... Sweden already in late 1942 started talk to German about cancel the transit. First of all we have to establish "what was the transits?" passed through Sweden on our roads and railroads. Most its was a steady flow of ammo, equipment, shoot out vertices from Fin-front on its way to Norway work-shops for repair and back again, and troops on home leave to Germany both from and to Finland and Norway. This canceling was nor minor thing for Germans. The transit used up 10% of Sweden's railroad resources for 3 years, it was no minor thing.
C. "but why put effort there when they got what they wanted from sweden strategically"
Well, it was correct, at least up to 1943, then we announced we would lower the iron export to Germans, and as mention before, transit was put to a halt.
So obviously Germans dint "nazi germany got exactly mostly everything they needed from sweden, our ore, use of our railroads for troops" + "got what they wanted from sweden" at least not anymore from late summer 1943, this was the reason for the plan, "Fall Sverige" to regain what they had, and even get more...
Further: As Sweden Iron stod for 50% of Germans total usage, one can only imagen how the "news" of swedens desition to "lowering export" of Iron was recived in Germany, by the German war industry, the German army, and by "Mr Calm" him self aka A. Hitler....
How much was the Swedish iron export lowered with? Initially in 1943 it was lowered with 25%, this would be cause Germans total steel output to drop with 12.5%, that's no minor drop for a nation who is faced with Sherman's and T34 in ever grater numbers. The lowering of Swedish Iron export continued, and only one year later in 1944 the export was down to nothing, no iron at all was exported. By this time German lost half (50%) of there iron ore supply, no minor thing. So to conclude German was not assaulting Sweden just cause they dint want to, or feel they want to, or felt they needed to, is a grouse misunderstanding.
Other relevant facts: Beside this plan "Fall Sverige", there was another plan to assault Sweden, named "Polar Räv", that Germans formed in February 1942, that suggested 18 divisions for the assault, this was turned down.
Ye,
Stalky
Last edited by AT_Stalky on Sun May 29, 2005 6:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
stalky, we're referring to slightly different parts of world war 2 and respective strenght of germany/sweden
1. germany would have crushed sweden in 1940 along with norway if they needed. for strategical reasons they didnt, along with swe gvt complying with german needs, ie ore. can we agree on this?
2. sweden even complied with german needs of swe railroads in the build up to barbarossa, as you mention. germany didnt need to attack.
3. of course, in 1943/1944 attacking sweden was a much harder thing. i know very well russian front was faltering, and problems became even more critical in 44. iv hard time seeing germans diverting forces to a risky operation in sweden.
so agreed, after spring 1943 it wouldnt have been "easy" to crush the swedes.
Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 10:07 pm Post subject: Ye
I C
Well, we/I was in this thread talking about "Fall Sverige" 1943 - 1944 and the situation then, and the mod thats under construction and the game test of troops.
Not about 1940, thats another story, though that is intrestiong to from a historical point of view, maby somthing for another mod?
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