Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 12:33 pm Post subject: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD
I've been working on this - obviously off and on - for about six years now. That's how long it takes when you're working on a mod... alone... in the in-between hours...
I'm keeping a forum blog over at CSO, but I should do the same here, because a) I want to generate interest, and b) I want to generate interest in people who can do battlemaps to muck in with me. At least, I hope there's still interest in modding these days...
So, here's some examples of frontscreens. These were done for the original CC5, so they still need to be modified slightly for tLD.
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"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD
Here are the original BG images I did and the compromised version, when it turned out that the original ones just didn't translate into real game use. Still; I do like them.
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BGMap Images2.jpg
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"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD
Here are a modified version of my original team heads. Squadleader_id has apparently been putting my original team heads to work over the last few years; though they have evolved somewhat.
The legend is: ok, injured, incapacitated, dead, panicked, and surrendered.
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"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 1:14 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD
The allied BGs were pretty straightforward. The limitations of CC tLD accompanied with the strategic requirements dictate I use Regiment/Brigade sized Battlegroups (excepting the one Recce Battalion) for the allies. The documentation and records of this operation were fantastic, so it wasn't hard at all to find the OOBs and such. CC tLD only let me down once; the 25 unit Force Pool limit meant I had to cut out a few intended units from the Armoured Brigades, but I mostly got away with AA units, since records seem to suggest the allies had cut back - or cut out completely - using AA units by this stage of the war. The only real surprise in my researching was the Princess Irene Brigade, who - unfortunately - don't seem to get enough popular press. That gives me:
I believe this is the optimal segmentation to allow the triple strategic application of: capturing the bridges, spearheading up the route to Arnhem, and holding the road (and your supply lines) from counter attacks. It also leaves a lot of battlegroup spots left for the real problem; The German battlegroups listing.
"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD
God, what a mess. There are a number of major issues I encountered whilst trying to untangle this part of my research: the Germans had suffered gross casualties during the Normandy breakout, and many units had been heavily decimated or reduced in size; the German army had made use heavily of the Kampfgruppe, which was a very flexible, varyingly sized, and constantly adjustable battle grouping; there was a ridiculous amount of axis troop movements during Market Garden; available records of German unit involvement are sometimes sketchy, and often - I've found - contradictory or confusing; the Germans re-assigned numerous units during this conflict, so some listings will say they were attached to this division, whilst others say that division, etc; the Nazi German army did a lot of unit adjustments over it's lifetime.
All of this means that not only is is hard to have a crystal clear picture of exactly which units took part, but the units that did take part were of varying strengths rather than documented standard troop/equipment quantities, and those that took part kept getting re-assigned, were split apart and divided up between a number of battlegroups, or just plain moved around a lot.
So, in the end you've got to account for the physical limitations of the campaign map and the fact that there are only thirty-nine battlegroup places left to use; seems a lot, but like I say, with the mish-mash of german units that took part it gets messy. In the end, I had to compromise more than I would like, and this is the list (which a few people are bound to disagree with):
The first problem with this list is that, as I said, some people may not be happy with these groupings, and I can't say they'd be wrong to complain. Because of the numerous re-assignments, some of these Kampfgruppes overlap at times, or were even absorbed into other Kampfgruppes. The second problem is that most are Divisional size, and the Force Pool maximum is 25 units. Compound that with the constant swapping and sharing of troops, and I'm worried that the German unit types are going to be a lot more generalised when my allied unit listings are all pretty specific (I even got away with divisional support units). Basically, I'm still not sure this is the best solution, but it's my working solve for the time being. If anyone would like to suggest different (remember - 39 BG spots left, and 25 unit limit for each BGs total FPool), I'm open.
"I have come here to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all out of bubblegum." - They Live
Last edited by Hoogley on Thu May 13, 2010 2:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD
Here are the Unit lists for each allied Battlegroup, including quantities (based on research data, not gameplay testing). German unit lists will be a little longer to come...
BRITISH AIRBORNE
1st Parachute Brigade
UKPB Company HQ 9
UKPB Platoon HQ 27
UKPB Mortar Group 12
UKPB Rifle Group 54
UKPB Hv Rifle Group 27
UKPB Gun Group 81
UKPB Intelligence (Sniper) 24
UKPB MMG Group 12
UKPB Assault Section 5
UKPB AT Group 20
UKAD Fwd Observers 1
UKAD Lt Artillery 8
UKAD Lt AT Gun 8
UKAD Hv AT Gun 8
UKAD Engineer Section 9
UKAD Pathfinder Group 8
UKAD Recce Jeep 6
UKAD Recce Group
4th Parachute Brigade
UKPB Company HQ 9
UKPB Platoon HQ 27
UKPB Mortar Group 12
UKPB Rifle Group 54
UKPB Hv Rifle Group 27
UKPB Gun Group 81
UKPB Intelligence (Sniper) 24
UKPB MMG Group 12
UKPB Assault Section 5
UKPB AT Group 20
UKAD Fwd Observers 1
UKAD Lt Artillery 8
UKAD Lt AT Gun 8
UKAD Hv AT Gun 8
UKAD Engineer Section 9
UKAD Pathfinder Group 8
UKAD Recce Jeep 6
UKAD Recce Group
1st Airlanding Brigade
UKAL Company HQ 12
UKAL Platoon HQ 48
UKAL Bren Carrier 12
UKAL Md Mortar Group 18
UKAL MMG Group 24
UKAL Lt AT Gun 24
UKAL Lt Mortar Group 48
UKAL Rifle Section 108
UKAL Rifle Group 36
UKAL AT Group 48
UKAL Jeep Mortar 18
UKAD Fwd Observer 1
UKAD Lt Artillery Gun 8
UKAD Lt AT Gun 8
UKAD Hv AT Gun 8
UKAD Engineer Section 9
UKAD Pathfinder Group 8
UKAD Recce Jeep 6
UKAD Recce Group
US AIRBORNE
504th Parachute Infantry Regiment
USAB Company HQ 9
USAB Platoon HQ 27
USAB Rifle Team 27
USAB Hv Rifle Team 27
USAB Gun Team 54
USAB Scout Team 54
USAB Sniper 27
USAB AT Team 18
USAB LMG Team 24
USAB Lt Mortar Team 27
USAB Md Mortar Team 12
USAD MMG Team 11
USAD Lt AA Gun 3
USAD Lt AT Gun 4
USAD Lt Artillery Gun 9
USAD Engineer Squad 2
505th Parachute Infantry Regiment
USAB Company HQ 9
USAB Platoon HQ 27
USAB Rifle Team 27
USAB Hv Rifle Team 27
USAB Gun Team 54
USAB Scout Team 54
USAB Sniper 27
USAB AT Team 18
USAB LMG Team 24
USAB Lt Mortar Team 27
USAB Md Mortar Team 12
USAD MMG Team 11
USAD Lt AA Gun 3
USAD Lt AT Gun 4
USAD Lt Artillery Gun 9
USAD Engineer Squad 2
508th Parachute Infantry Regiment
USAB Company HQ 9
USAB Platoon HQ 27
USAB Rifle Team 27
USAB Hv Rifle Team 27
USAB Gun Team 54
USAB Scout Team 54
USAB Sniper 27
USAB AT Team 18
USAB LMG Team 24
USAB Lt Mortar Team 27
USAB Md Mortar Team 12
USAD MMG Team 11
USAD Lt AA Gun 3
USAD Lt AT Gun 4
USAD Lt Artillery Gun 9
USAD Engineer Squad 2
325th Glider Infantry Regiment
USGI Company HQ 9
USGI Platoon HQ 18
USGI Rifle Team 27
USGI Hv Rifle Team 27
USGI Gun Team 54
USGI Scout Team 54
USGI Sniper 18
USGI AT Team 30
USGI LMG Team 18
USGI MMG Team 12
USGI Lt Mortar Team 36
USGI Md Mortar Team 18
USAD MMG Team 11
USAD Lt AA Gun 3
USAD Lt AT Gun 4
USAD Lt Artillery Gun 9
USAD Engineer Squad 2
US AIRBORNE CONT'
501st Parachute Infantry Regiment
USAB Company HQ 9
USAB Platoon HQ 27
USAB Rifle Team 27
USAB Hv Rifle Team 27
USAB Gun Team 54
USAB Scout Team 54
USAB Sniper 27
USAB AT Team 18
USAB LMG Team 24
USAB Lt Mortar Team 27
USAB Md Mortar Team 12
USAD MMG Team 9
USAD Lt AA Gun 2
USAD Lt AT Gun 3
USAD Lt Artillery Gun 7
USAD Engineer Squad 2
502nd Parachute Infantry Regiment
USAB Company HQ 9
USAB Platoon HQ 27
USAB Rifle Team 27
USAB Hv Rifle Team 27
USAB Gun Team 54
USAB Scout Team 54
USAB Sniper 27
USAB AT Team 18
USAB LMG Team 24
USAB Lt Mortar Team 27
USAB Md Mortar Team 12
USAD MMG Team 9
USAD Lt AA Gun 2
USAD Lt AT Gun 3
USAD Lt Artillery Gun 7
USAD Engineer Squad 2
506th Parachute Infantry Regiment
USAB Company HQ 9
USAB Platoon HQ 27
USAB Rifle Team 27
USAB Hv Rifle Team 27
USAB Gun Team 54
USAB Scout Team 54
USAB Sniper 27
USAB AT Team 18
USAB LMG Team 24
USAB Lt Mortar Team 27
USAB Md Mortar Team 12
USAD MMG Team 9
USAD Lt AA Gun 2
USAD Lt AT Gun 3
USAD Lt Artillery Gun 7
USAD Engineer Squad 2
327th Glider Infantry Regiment
USGI Company HQ 9
USGI Platoon HQ 18
USGI Rifle Team 27
USGI Hv Rifle Team 27
USGI Gun Team 54
USGI Scout Team 54
USGI Sniper 18
USGI AT Team 30
USGI LMG Team 18
USGI MMG Team 12
USGI Lt Mortar Team 36
USGI Md Mortar Team 18
USAD MMG Team 9
USAD Lt AA Gun 2
USAD Lt AT Gun 3
USAD Lt Artillery Gun 7
USAD Engineer Squad 2
401st Glider Infantry Regiment
USGI Company HQ 9
USGI Platoon HQ 18
USGI Rifle Team 27
USGI Hv Rifle Team 27
USGI Gun Team 54
USGI Scout Team 54
USGI Sniper 18
USGI AT Team 30
USGI LMG Team 18
USGI MMG Team 12
USGI Lt Mortar Team 36
USGI Md Mortar Team 18
USAD MMG Team 9
USAD Lt AA Gun 2
USAD Lt AT Gun 3
USAD Lt Artillery Gun 7
USAD Engineer Squad 2
BRITISH ARMOURED
5th Guards Armoured Brigade
UKAR Sherman HQ Tank 12
UKAR Cromwell HQ Tank 18
UKAR Stuart HQ Tank 6
UKAR Daimler Scout Car 27
UKAR Stuart Tank 27
UKAR Cromwell 54
UKAR Sherman 54
UKAR Firefly 36
UKAR Cromwell CS 18
UKMI HQ Bren Carrier 9
UKMI HQ Halftrack 6
UKMI Platoon HQ 9
UKMI Infantry Section 27
UKMI AT Group 7
UKMI MMG Group 4
UKMI Gun Group 3
UKMI Md Mortar Group 6
UKMI Lt AT Gun 12
UKMI Bren Carrier 27
UKMI Vickers Carrier 4
UKMI Halftrack 27
UKGD Engineers 3 (9)
UKGD MMG Group 4 (12)
UKGD Hv AT Gun 8 (24)
UKGD Sexton 8 (24)
32nd Guards Armoured Brigade
UKAR Sherman HQ Tank 8
UKAR Cromwell HQ Tank 12
UKAR Stuart HQ Tank 4
UKAR Daimler Scout Car 18
UKAR Stuart Tank 18
UKAR Cromwell 38
UKAR Sherman 38
UKAR Firefly 24
UKAR Cromwell CS 12
UKMI HQ Bren Carrier 9
UKMI HQ Halftrack 3
UKMI Platoon HQ 9
UKMI Infantry Section 27
UKMI AT Group 7
UKMI MMG Group 4
UKMI Gun Group 3
UKMI Md Mortar Group 6
UKMI Lt AT Gun 12
UKMI Bren Carrier 27
UKMI Vickers Carrier 4
UKMI Halftrack 27
UKGD Engineers 3 (9)
UKGD MMG Group 4 (12)
UKGD Hv AT Gun 8 (24)
UKGD Sexton 8 (24)
2nd Welsh Armoured Guards (Recce) Battalion
UKAR Cromwell HQ Tank 10
UKAR Stuart HQ Tank 2
UKAR AA Tank 6
UKAR Daimler Scout Car 9
UKAR Stuart Tank 9
UKAR Cromwell 36
UKAR Firefly 12
UKAR Cromwell CS 6
UKGD Engineers 3
UKGD MMG Group 4
UKGD Md Mortar Group 1
UKGD Lt AA Gun 18
UKGD Hv AT Gun 8
UKGD Sexton 8
BRITISH ARMOURED CONT'
8th Armoured Brigade
UKAR Sherman HQ Tank 12
UKAR Cromwell HQ Tank 18
UKAR Stuart HQ Tank 6
UKAR AA Tank 18
UKAR Daimler Scout Car 27
UKAR Stuart Tank 27
UKAR Cromwell 54
UKAR Sherman 54
UKAR Firefly 36
UKAR Cromwell CS 18
UKMI Daimler HQ Scout Car 3
UKMI HQ Bren Carrier 9
UKMI HQ Halftrack 3
UKMI Platoon HQ 9
UKMI Infantry Section 27
UKMI AT Group 7
UKMI MMG Group 4
UKMI Gun Group 3
UKMI Md Mortar Group 6
UKMI AA Group 6
UKMI Lt AT Gun 12
UKMI Bren Carrier 27
UKMI Vickers Carrier 4
UKMI Halftrack 27
BRITISH INFANTRY
129th Brigade
UKIB HQ Bren Carrier 5
UKIB HQ Jeep 1
UKIB Company HQ 4
UKIB Platoon HQ 12
UKIB Bren Carrier 18
UKIB Jeep 6
UKIB Rifle Group 24
UKIB Hv Rifle Group 12
UKIB Assault Section 2
UKIB Pioneer Section 1
UKIB Gun Group 42
UKIB Sniper 8
UKIB AT Group 30
UKIB Lt Mortar Group 31
UKIB Hv Mortar Group 6
UKIB Lt AT Gun 6
UKID Engineer Section 4
UKID MMG Group 12
UKID Hv Mortar Group 5
UKID 40mm AA Gun 16
UKID Lt AT Gun 5
UKID Hv AT Gun 10
130th Brigade
UKIB HQ Bren Carrier 5
UKIB HQ Jeep 1
UKIB Company HQ 4
UKIB Platoon HQ 12
UKIB Bren Carrier 18
UKIB Jeep 6
UKIB Rifle Group 24
UKIB Hv Rifle Group 12
UKIB Assault Section 2
UKIB Pioneer Section 1
UKIB Gun Group 42
UKIB Sniper 8
UKIB AT Group 30
UKIB Lt Mortar Group 31
UKIB Hv Mortar Group 6
UKIB Lt AT Gun 6
UKID Engineer Section 4
UKID MMG Group 12
UKID Hv Mortar Group 5
UKID 40mm AA Gun 16
UKID Lt AT Gun 5
UKID Hv AT Gun 10
214th Brigade
UKIB HQ Bren Carrier 5
UKIB HQ Jeep 1
UKIB Company HQ 4
UKIB Platoon HQ 12
UKIB Bren Carrier 18
UKIB Jeep 6
UKIB Rifle Group 24
UKIB Hv Rifle Group 12
UKIB Assault Section 2
UKIB Pioneer Section 1
UKIB Gun Group 42
UKIB Sniper 8
UKIB AT Group 30
UKIB Lt Mortar Group 31
UKIB Hv Mortar Group 6
UKIB Lt AT Gun 6
UKID Engineer Section 4
UKID MMG Group 12
UKID Hv Mortar Group 5
UKID 40mm AA Gun 16
UKID Lt AT Gun 5
UKID Hv AT Gun 10
BRITISH INFANTRY CONT'
69th Brigade
UKIB HQ Bren Carrier 5
UKIB HQ Jeep 1
UKIB Company HQ 4
UKIB Platoon HQ 12
UKIB Bren Carrier 18
UKIB Jeep 6
UKIB Rifle Group 24
UKIB Hv Rifle Group 12
UKIB Assault Section 2
UKIB Pioneer Section 1
UKIB Gun Group 42
UKIB Sniper 8
UKIB AT Group 30
UKIB Lt Mortar Group 31
UKIB Hv Mortar Group 6
UKIB Lt AT Gun 6
UKID Engineer Section 4
UKID MMG Group 12
UKID Hv Mortar Group 5
UKID 40mm AA Gun 16
UKID Lt AT Gun 5
UKID Hv AT Gun 10
151st Brigade
UKIB HQ Bren Carrier 5
UKIB HQ Jeep 1
UKIB Company HQ 4
UKIB Platoon HQ 12
UKIB Bren Carrier 18
UKIB Jeep 6
UKIB Rifle Group 24
UKIB Hv Rifle Group 12
UKIB Assault Section 2
UKIB Pioneer Section 1
UKIB Gun Group 42
UKIB Sniper 8
UKIB AT Group 30
UKIB Lt Mortar Group 31
UKIB Hv Mortar Group 6
UKIB Lt AT Gun 6
UKID Engineer Section 4
UKID MMG Group 12
UKID Hv Mortar Group 5
UKID 40mm AA Gun 16
UKID Lt AT Gun 5
UKID Hv AT Gun 10
231st Brigade
UKIB HQ Bren Carrier 5
UKIB HQ Jeep 1
UKIB Company HQ 4
UKIB Platoon HQ 12
UKIB Bren Carrier 18
UKIB Jeep 6
UKIB Rifle Group 24
UKIB Hv Rifle Group 12
UKIB Assault Section 2
UKIB Pioneer Section 1
UKIB Gun Group 42
UKIB Sniper 8
UKIB AT Group 30
UKIB Lt Mortar Group 31
UKIB Hv Mortar Group 6
UKIB Lt AT Gun 6
UKID Engineer Section 4
UKID MMG Group 12
UKID Hv Mortar Group 5
UKID 40mm AA Gun 16
UKID Lt AT Gun 5
UKID Hv AT Gun 10
BRITISH INFANTRY CONT'
157th Brigade
UKIB HQ Bren Carrier 5
UKIB HQ Jeep 1
UKIB Company HQ 4
UKIB Platoon HQ 12
UKIB Bren Carrier 18
UKIB Jeep 6
UKIB Rifle Group 24
UKIB Hv Rifle Group 12
UKIB Assault Section 2
UKIB Pioneer Section 1
UKIB Gun Group 42
UKIB Sniper 8
UKIB AT Group 30
UKIB Lt Mortar Group 31
UKIB Hv Mortar Group 6
UKIB Lt AT Gun 6
Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD
Good Luck with your mod, looks nice so far, however if I may offer some advice:-
Looking at the Brit armoured BGs I notice you seem to have a lot of Cromwells around, by the time of Market Garden the Guards were operating in 'regt. groupings' as opposed to the more formal Bde groupings.
So there were Grenadier, Coldstream, Irish and Welsh BG within the Division each consisting of an Armoured battalion and a Infantry Battalion. Of these the first 3 were equipped with Sherman V tanks, plus the Recce Sqn of Stuarts, whilst the Welsh BG had mainly Cromwells, again with the addition of Stuarts in the Recce Sqn.
A point of conjecture is if the Welsh used the Challenger gun tank in the Cromwell Troops at this time or if they still retained the Sherman FF, sources are divided, so your dammed whichever you choose!
The 8th Armoured Bde was formed of 3 Armoured Regts. 4/7 Dragoon Guards, 13/18 Hussars and Sherwood Rangers, these similarly were equipped with the Sherman too at that time, with the usual Stuart in the Recce Sqns.
I hope this is of some help to you, and as I said in the first line Good Luck
Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD
You have done a fantastic work!
If someone like me thats doing only "half-made" mods should have any opinion..just missing an area before Eindhoven with the breakthrough area for Horrocks, but i suppose the stratmap should be too stretcht then?
Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD
To a realism nutcase like me, the quality of people CC attracts is both remarkable and satisfying. Yes, ok, there are a few plonkers at the bottom end, but on the whole, they are relatively harmless.
That is impressive work Hoogley! A long labour of love and dedication, and kudos to you for sticking with it. If I had the time to produce Maps for you, I would be sorely tempted, though I am going to need Maps myself sometime if my own endeavours ever come to light. Come to think of it, apart from the improvements we would dearly love to see with the CC Engine, a 'Map generator' could be the single most powerful and useful utility to the CC Community as a way to help promote and speed up Mod developments. The biggest hurdle being the issue of Map Coding I think, and I am not sure if there is any way around that. Any genius's about?...
Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 9:50 pm Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD
Like I said over at CSO...very nice work and good luck!
Map making is the killer of mods...so you might want to consider Shreckie's tip.
Also check out Mafi's CC2Tool ...great for cutting/shrinking and flipping maps (incl. auto-coding).
Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 12:01 am Post subject: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD
You could also consider re-painting the old CCII maps with newer textures.
(I still can't find that fellas post who was doing it years ago,maybe it got lost in a CSO crash)
You could then use 5CC to easily change the elements from the old CCII to work on the newer versions of CC.
Not the same as having something new,but making maps suck and we have no one who is willing to create a map generator.
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