Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:28 am Post subject: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier
One Man's definition of terrorist is another man's definition of freedom fighter.
Afganistan 1980's Islamic Holy Warriors were considered Terrorists to the Soviets. Martyrs and Heros to the Afganistan resistance. Freedom Fighters and "Allies" to the United States. 30 years later most of these same Afgan Fighters are now considered enemies to the United States and our NATO allies. Although now we understand how politics can create blowback as allegiances and winds of politics change. Now obviously we see the tables turn as Russia is considered an ally of America and partner against Radical Islam. Some American political fanatics are still trying to provoke Russia and do not want allegiance with our former rival...due to some strange reason, possibly financially motivated to get new arms contracts from a renewed arms race.
I think in answer to the OP's main point... fanaticism is best described as a soldier or chain of command that acts in premeditated crimes against humanity. Also actions that are in violation of the Geneva Convention.
SS political leaders were complicit with crimes against humanity. Soviet NKVD also would be complicit with crimes against humanity - although this was an internal matter. Individual actions of soldiers as part of military units are considered more acts of crime than acts against humanity if things like rape, theft or random killing of civilians. This gets into a very gray area as the Chain of Command is often ( still to this day ) shielded from accountability for legal purposes - then the solider becomes the scapegoat when in fact his commanders authorized systematic murder etc. To present day - this continues to be a major legal liability for nations in terms of reparations, and whether or not governments can be prosecuted. America is still somewhat divided over the issue of torturing civilian combatants and whether or not they should receive any GC rights yet alone whether or not they can be tortured.
One Man's definition of terrorist is another man's definition of freedom fighter.
Afganistan 1980's Islamic Holy Warriors were considered Terrorists to the Soviets. Martyrs and Heros to the Afganistan resistance. Freedom Fighters and "Allies" to the United States. 30 years later most of these same Afgan Fighters are now considered enemies to the United States and our NATO allies.
AFAIK these Afghan Fighters become bandit warlords that later were attacked by the Taliban and formed the Northern Alliance which NATO supported during the war in Afghanistan. So, they are still American allies.
I think in answer to the OP's main point... fanaticism is best described as a soldier or chain of command that acts in premeditated crimes against humanity.
Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier
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AFAIK these Afghan Fighters become bandit warlords that later were attacked by the Taliban and formed the Northern Alliance which NATO supported during the war in Afghanistan. So, they are still American allies.
and btw Taliban was the only one who was fighting against heroin in Afgan as it was/is the main resource for Northern Alliance/Afgani goverment. While NATO forces in Afgan just supports the heroin cash-flow .
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:41 am Post subject: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier
ouch salt in the wounds...it is bitter irony that now almost 10 years after the war began, we are right back at square one negotiating potential peace terms with the initial enemy factions. Or at least Karzai is negotiating. Yes there are very strange rumours and stories about drug trade and "missing" American funds that were supposedly for aid purposes. Karzai's brother on the CIA payroll? Billions of $ mysteriously being moved with no audit trail. Troops are on orders to destroy marijuana I saw in a documentary. Re: the Norther Alliance the main leader was assassinated. Also rumours of U.S. / NATO aircraft being downed by AA weapons...possibly some of the U.S. supplied stinger AA missles that never were completely accounted for. Plus Pakistan has its own agenda...going back to the days of the USSR vs Muhajideen - U.S. funded battles. It was never U.S. directly - Pakistan intelligence was the middle man. Pakistan is like a free-swinging mercenary that is trying to oppress both Afganistan and India...all the while using the U.S. for whatever $ it can swindle.
Iran sending suitcases of cash to Karzai? Not sure what that is about.
China 50 years after Korea is now America's #1 trading partner. So it really was NOT all about Communism being the evil world enemy #1? Vietnam likewise is now on the fast track to preferred trading partner. Intel allegedly is moving a major production facility there soon. It really equates to virtual slave labor and maximizing profits for U.S. corporations. It doesn't matter that millions of American jobs have been permanently replaced in China, Vietnam, India and even former Warsaw Pact nations. I guess it really had nothing to do with politics now that the USSR is gone.
U.S. political fanatics may succeed in tricking America into starting a new arms race with Russia and China? The Neo-Facists are unfortunately consolidating their power so the winds of political change are as unpredictable as ever. Drives our NATO allies crazy i'm sure.
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:27 am Post subject: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier
I wrote a song about all this capital greed years ago, but its still relevant today. Corporate greed and religious fanatics. Chistian & Muslim (brainwashed from birth) This music is copyright to me. If enough of you are interested I'll post it on YOUTUBE. The whole moral to the song is the last verse. Like John Lennons "Imagine" My song is about "Harmony"
130 Rock2 Harmony B7 F#7F#7F#& A E7E7E7
Intro X 2
Now people you know it’s true, and
don’t say it’s not happening to you
Prices going up each day, while the farmer slowly fades away
Free trade, they say, will make us all rich some day
But what, I want, to know is.. just where do all the dollars go..
Whole families blown away, forclosed.. in the streets of toda..y
For What….t What have they go…t
Intro X 2
Blinded by the greed, of the big Corporate machine
Say, Buy shares in what got, and we promise you we’ll make you a lot
Get your head out of the sand,
Cause there’s no more jobs left in this land.
They’re all go’in out offsho..re,
just trying to make you, a little bit more.,..
For Wha…t , what have you got..t
Intro X 2
Why should we have to bare, Politicians who don’t care..
Stand up and join the fight, cause don’t you know,
there’s wrong and right
Stand up and fi..ght, it’s your ri..ght
Stand up and fi..ght, it’s your ri..ght.
Chorus
Harmony, meant to be, Harmony just U & me
Harmony, meant to be, Harmony just sing it with me
Harmony, 4 ever will be, Harmony, sing it with me
Harmony, U & me
Climate change, all the rage,
and they say it’s not happening these days
Tidal Waves, Hurricanes, Bushfires, the winds of change
Things are goin horribly wrong, So getup now and sing your song
For Right, Get up and fight, its your right X 4
Chorus
Slow down, make a change.
Remember you’ll be dead some day
Don’t be blinded by the greed, don’t you know, there’s others in need
Be strong, be true, remember there’s only one of yo..u
Stand tall, Be proud, you know you got to sing it out loud
Sing it loud, Be a crowd sing it loud .. X 2
Solo
Make them listen, make them change, no more of the religious insane
Get the nod, from your GOD, cause harmony, it’s meant to be,
Chorus X 2, solo, chorus, outro
You know if you don't live it.... You can't give it.
ouch salt in the wounds...it is bitter irony that now almost 10 years after the war began, we are right back at square one negotiating potential peace terms with the initial enemy factions. Or at least Karzai is negotiating. Yes there are very strange rumours and stories about drug trade and "missing" American funds that were supposedly for aid purposes. Karzai's brother on the CIA payroll? Billions of $ mysteriously being moved with no audit trail. Troops are on orders to destroy marijuana I saw in a documentary. Re: the Norther Alliance the main leader was assassinated. Also rumours of U.S. / NATO aircraft being downed by AA weapons...possibly some of the U.S. supplied stinger AA missles that never were completely accounted for. Plus Pakistan has its own agenda...going back to the days of the USSR vs Muhajideen - U.S. funded battles. It was never U.S. directly - Pakistan intelligence was the middle man. Pakistan is like a free-swinging mercenary that is trying to oppress both Afganistan and India...all the while using the U.S. for whatever $ it can swindle.
Iran sending suitcases of cash to Karzai? Not sure what that is about.
It really equates to virtual slave labor and maximizing profits for U.S. corporations. It doesn't matter that millions of American jobs have been permanently replaced in China, Vietnam, India and even former Warsaw Pact nations. I guess it really had nothing to do with politics now that the USSR is gone.
After all, communism and socialism didn't happen just because some people decided to be evil. It was a reaction to the exploitative capitalism.
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier
Wow, people really got strange views of things...
So far, Woulf and Kawasaky has been the most reasonable guys, who seems to know what they are talking about.
The rest of you seems to be racists that hates EVERY german for something that their country did over 65 years ago. It's time to forgive the poor sods.
Yes, germany was responsible for the deaths of million, but let's not forget that communism is directly/indirectly responsible for the deaths of way over 60 million people. Only religion all together has killed more people, so please throw crap at religion and communism as well.
The Soviet Union was as least as bad as the germans, IF NOT WORSE. Stalin was responsible for the deaths of about 30 million soviet nationals (deliberate starvation and excecution of anti-soviet elements) during his time, as well as the deportion and excecution of Jews, intellectuals, ethnic groups like different cossack tribes, estonians, finns, georgians and those who activly practiced different religion like buddishm. The NKVD was like the Gestapo and had their own concentration camps : the Gulags.
And let's not forget Allied war crimes such as: terror bombing, executing POWs, using enemy uniforms in commando raids, (yes it is a war crime to use an enemy's uniform and pose as one of them) and two nuclear bombs and not to mentioning the killing of thousends of civilians in further conflicts like Korea, Vietnam and Iraq.
Im not trying to protect or whitewash Nazi-Germany, im only trying to point out that nazi-germany wasn't the only "blacksheep" during ww2.
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What? China stopped being communist some time ago. It's exploitative capitalist now.
The last time I checked, China is still a communist totalitarian state (In it's own ways).
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:24 pm Post subject: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier
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The rest of you seems to be racists that hates EVERY german for something that their country did over 65 years ago.
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Stalin was responsible for the deaths of about 30 million soviet nationals (deliberate starvation and excecution of anti-soviet elements) during his time
where did you get these numbers from?
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as well as the deportion and excecution of Jews, intellectuals,ethnic groups like different cossack tribes, estonians, finns, georgians and those who activly practiced different religion like buddishm.
wtf? are you serious?
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The NKVD was like the Gestapo and had their own concentration camps : the Gulags
Every state's Domestic Affairs Ministry has it's own prisons, camps, etc.
Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier
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Stalin was responsible for the deaths of about 30 million soviet nationals (deliberate starvation and excecution of anti-soviet elements) during his time
where did you get these numbers from?
From different online sources,books and documentrys. But i must confess that the "excact" numbers are unclear, which ranges from 9-30 million.
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as well as the deportion and excecution of Jews, intellectuals,ethnic groups like different cossack tribes, estonians, finns, georgians and those who activly practiced different religion like buddishm.
wtf? are you serious?
Yes Im serious. The NKVD hunted down Jews as well as Intellectuals for roughly the same reasons the Nazis did. Perhaps the Soviet Union didn't kill so many of these unfortunate, but they did deport a huge amount of people to Siberia and the Gulags there. The cossacks and the baltic-states were the ones who were hit hardest by the NKVD nd for example Lithuania got about 20% of its populance deported to Siberia as cheap labour because they were "kolaks" (independat "rich" farmers).
Religion in all was "forbidden" in the USSR, all churches and chapells were closed, but during the dark days of the Nazi invasion Stalin decided to open them to lift the spirit and morale of the people.
Btw, i think the Katyn massacre is a good example. Around 200 Polish officers executed because they could be trouble in the future.
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Every state's Domestic Affairs Ministry has it's own prisons, camps, etc.
Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:20 am Post subject: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier
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From different online sources,books and documentrys. But i must confess that the "excact" numbers are unclear, which ranges from 9-30 million.
numbers unclear for whom?
why not from 100-100.000.000?
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Yes Im serious.
you are seriously out of the topic.
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The NKVD hunted down Jews as well as Intellectuals for roughly the same reasons the Nazis did.
any proofs for that?
how long have they been doing that? how come they were so ineffective that f.e. almost half of the population of Kiev consited of jews and the Soviet goverment consisted of many jews and itellectuals?
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Perhaps the Soviet Union didn't kill so many of these unfortunate, but they did deport a huge amount of people to Siberia and the Gulags there.
who has reported to whom?
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The cossacks and the baltic-states were the ones who were hit hardest by the NKVD nd for example Lithuania got about 20% of its populance deported to Siberia as cheap labour because they were "kolaks" (independat "rich" farmers).
bah, sometimes it's better to chew than to talk and make fool out of yourself. Again you are totally out of this question.
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Religion in all was "forbidden" in the USSR, all churches and chapells were closed,but during the dark days of the Nazi invasion Stalin decided to open them to lift the spirit and morale of the people.
total mess...
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Btw, i think the Katyn massacre is a good example. Around 200 Polish officers executed because they could be trouble in the future.
Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier
War is always total war.
No need to cry for handful of jews which were killed. In fact, jews killed millions of Ukrainians (Holodomor) and Russians during communist regime.
Every side was taking part of atrocities, but still my opinion is that jews were the biggest war criminals in WWII.
Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier
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War is always total war.
not true, too many examples when wars were local .
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No need to cry for handful of jews which were killed. In fact, jews killed millions of Ukrainians (Holodomor) and Russians during communist regime. Every side was taking part of atrocities, but still my opinion is that jews were the biggest war criminals in WWII.
Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier
Yes, im off topic, so I'll shut up now. Just a few more things:
Some explination of the unclear numbers of dead kulaks (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulaks) "The overwhelming majority of kulaks executed and imprisoned were male, but precise numbers are somewhat difficult to obtain. Many historians consider the great famine a result of the "liquidation of the kulaks as a class," which complicates the estimation of death tolls. A wide range of death tolls has been suggested, from as many as 60 million suggested by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn to as few as 700,000 by Soviet news sources"
False is such a "angry" word, I just forgot to hit two more "0"s.
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Anyway, good example of anti-ussr fanatic
That seems a bit unacalled for, but yeah...perhaps you are a too proud russian to listen?
Never mind my bollocs...I'll keep quite now. I didn't mean to upset anyone or start a flaming war or anything. Just tried to point out that NAzi germany wern't the only bad guys during the 20th century. Again: Sorry
Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:47 pm Post subject: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier
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Some explination of the unclear numbers of dead kulaks (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulaks) "The overwhelming majority of kulaks executed and imprisoned were male,but precise numbers are somewhat difficult to obtain.
guess what, my grand-grand-dad was so-called Kulak in Kuban (Cossak he was), was de-Kulak-fied and sent to the labour camp. Guess what after? He was killed by mortar shell in 1944 as a political officer (major) of RA in East Prussia...funny eh? (I can prove each word).
Now explain how could he become officer in RA?
Please, give me numbers of executed and inmprisoned each year. (yes, i have them).
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Many historians consider the great famine a result of the "liquidation of the kulaks as a class," which complicates the estimation of death tolls.
only the "historians" like Beevor and Suvorov could tell that. And yes, here again we have all the numbers as they are not cencored anymore for more than 10 years .
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A wide range of death tolls has been suggested, from as many as 60 million suggested by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn to as few as 700,000 by Soviet news sources"
so thats your main source? funny, why don't u take G.Orwell "1984" as a source?
so that's your sources?
please answer why do they contradict each other?
Probably that;s why Sergiy, Patriarch of Mirgorod, told on 22.06.1941 (my translation):
Fascist bandits attacked our Motherland. Refusing any agreements and promises, they have suddenly stroke us, and now blood of civilians spills on peacefull land. The times of Batyi, the german knights, Charles the Sweden, Napoleon, return. Pity descendants of enemies of orthodox chrisitians want to kneel our people against heretics once more, with pure hostility force our people to sacrifice the Land's integrity, blood promises to our Motherland.
yes, i have more .
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False is such a "angry" word, I just forgot to hit two more "0"s.
so from 200 to 20.000?
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That seems a bit unacalled for, but yeah...perhaps you are a too proud russian to listen?
u know, i can tell alot of bad things about USSR, but you, knowing nothing, start telling alot of crap with a rage of fanatic..
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Just tried to point out that NAzi germany wern't the only bad guys during the 20th century
u know, the Russian Ministry of External Intellegence has today declissified the order of Hitler to kill all the male persons on occupied Ukraine when they were retreating in 1944..
Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:33 pm Post subject: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier
Eh guys, keep cool. Reading has been *mostly* great so far, dont make it trolling/flaming
You know, I'm just a normal guy like everyone else. Why, my friends say, "Andreus you're just so cool because you're normal just like everyone else." Yep, normal that's me. - Fallout 2
Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:24 am Post subject: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier
Somebody with a Zionist conspiracy - Josef Goebbels-style avatar posts a video of American Neo-Nazi and KKK leader? What a shocker.
Re: Karlmortar...I think you have revisionist attitude. Nobody I think claims all Germans soldiers were guilty of war crimes or that Germany should still be made villian for role in crimes. Most German soldiers were just doing their civic duty, sometimes against their wishes. SS soldiers did not necessarily participate in war crimes but most WOULD kill civilians if ordered, fight to the death, and swear 100% allegiance to the Nazi party. I've seen video interviews with Russian vets that said if they were in fight with SS...they were on guard and made to fear them. USSR of course participated in brutal crimes against humanity of historic proportions but the vast majority was against other USSR citizens for political fanatic purposes. Also the USSR did not instigate conflict but actually was complicit with forming treaty of cooperation with Nazi's until 1941.June when Stalin could not believe he was attacked by his supposed ally.
Yes I am the first to admit unfortunately my nation has blood on its hands with Iraq as it was an illegal invasion in my opinion. But America does NOT systematically and in pre-meditated manner conduct genocide or fanatical crimes against humanity. So spare me the Yankee - hater , America is just as bad as Nazi rhetoric. America spent tons of our own $ to help rebuild both Germany AND Japan, with our brightest and most talented economic/technical advisors. So much so Japan and Germany got state of the art new infrastructure better than what a lot of American cities had. Did America oppress or brutalize the Axis? No. Yes we sometimes feel guilt for being the only nation that nuked civilians. But it actually saved both Japanese and American lives from bitter fight to the death invasion - probably 1 million lives saved due to surrender.
Back to modern fanatics...America economic , cultural , educational decline could bring rise of Neo-Nazi that Tippo likes. It is true that since the majority of liberal-minded Americans that were open enough to elect a young 1/2 black 1/2 white man with Muslim name...has brought about a wave of backlash from the growing base of racist Neo-Nazi's and ripping an old scab off America's darker past. These right-wing fanatics are growing quickly in numbers and resources...arming up to the point ammo is constantly sold-out. Hate to say the achilles heel of modern Democracy is how well educated the base of the population is and how it's all about manipulation the govt by powerful $ interests. I am just glad not to be a gay Muslim Mexican in America - next thing you know they will be rounding all of them up in fascist police state camps. Seriously some political fanatics want to make it crime to be gay...and deport or round-up Muslims and Mexicans. Heck for that matter those same political fanatics HATE Europe and believe you are all crazy Socialists. What a joke.
Yes I am the first to admit unfortunately my nation has blood on its hands with Iraq as it was an illegal invasion in my opinion. But America does NOT systematically and in pre-meditated manner conduct... ...crimes against humanity.
USSR of course participated in brutal crimes against humanity of historic proportions but the vast majority was against other USSR citizens for political fanatic purposes. Also the USSR did not instigate conflict but actually was complicit with forming treaty of cooperation with Nazi's until 1941.June when Stalin could not believe he was attacked by his supposed ally.
Soviet did not instigate conflict? Well, not vs Germany ofcose..
Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, and most importent its secret protocol
Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:10 pm Post subject: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier
Hi Stalk
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Soviet did not instigate conflict? Well, not vs Germany ofcose..
Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, and most importent its secret protocol
that's the view from modern atittude. Now try to see it from late 30s-40s attitude, when the peacefull and understandable world was destroyed by Munchen agreement of 1938 .
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