Welcome to Close Combat Series
  Login or Register Home  ·  Downloads  ·  Forums  ·  Combat Camera  ·  Help  

  Survey
Do incapacitations count as a soldier's kills?

Yes
No



Results
Polls

Votes 1245
Comments: 1

  Shout Box!!

Only registered users can shout. Please login or create an account.

  Main Menu
Articles & News  
    Help
    Player`s News
    Site News
    Multiplayer
    Terrain Challenge
    Boot Camp
Community  
    Forums
    Downloads
    Combat Camera
    MOOXE @ Youtube
    Statistics
Members  
    Private Messages
    Your Account
    Logout

  Donations
Anonymous - $25.00
08/15/2022

Anonymous - $25.00
08/15/2022

Anonymous - $25.00
12/18/2021

Anonymous - $100.00
11/08/2021

Anonymous - $15.00
04/09/2021

Anonymous - $100.00
04/05/2021

Anonymous - $20.00
02/20/2021

Anonymous - $10.00
12/29/2020

Anonymous - $1.00
11/06/2020

ZAPPI4 - $20.00
10/10/2020

Find our site useful? Make a small donation to show your support.



Search for at
Close Combat Series Advanced Search


 Author
Message
 
mooxe

Rep: 221.7
votes: 25


PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:46 pm Post subject: Was there much close air support in WW2? Reply with quote

Was CAS very widespread in WW2? There were tons of airstrikes I know that. Were many actually called in by ground troops? There is an excellent system in Irag/Afghan where you can have CAS in just a few minutes or more. With comms not being as widespread throughout vehicles and men, and the fact there was more chaos to deal with back in WW2, I would assume CAS was not widely used. Airpower was probably doing more roaming and hunting then direct support of the troops.


Join Discord for technical support and online games.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
 
Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: Was there much close air support in WW2? Reply with quote

There was, especially with the German army.
Reaction time was much slower though, about 30-45mins.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
ronson

Rep: 36.7
votes: 5


PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 2:57 pm Post subject: Re: Was there much close air support in WW2? Reply with quote

It wasn't properly used by the British/Commonwealth forces until the reorganisation of the Desert Air force in mid 1942, after that time the practice of attaching Forward Air Controllers to forward army units was taken up, this was futher improved by the 'cab rank' which saw fighter-bomber formations over the battlefield awaiting the call onto tactical targets by these officers.
This system was also adopted in the Italian and NW Europe campaign, so that fighter-bombers could quickly strike at targets on the battlefield.
The main drawback of this sytem was that only the Forward Air Controller could communicate directly with the aircraft, this had grave effects during the first day of Goodwood for example, when the Shermans which carried this team became one of the first to go out of action.
However maybe the limitations of the military net of that time made this the only option, plus of course one couldn't have everyone having the authority to determine targets otherwise total chaos would be the end result.

Cheers
Ronson


GR member Ronson1  ac 4247033
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: Was there much close air support in WW2? Reply with quote

Correct me if im wrong, but I believe that effeciency of the german CAS system based on dive bombers was much closer to the modern one in terms of efficiency than US/UK system basing on fighter-bombers with their very limited effeciency against entrenched ground targets.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
vonB

Rep: 32.6
votes: 5


PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: Was there much close air support in WW2? Reply with quote

Air power was a crucial component of the German Blitzkreig.  It went hand in hand with the armoured thrusts and the infantry mop up.  The tanks would exploit the weak areas and carve through them, effectively creating pockets of enemy forces, which the Luftwaffe then pounded the crap out of while the infantry closed in to finish them off.  I have no idea if the Air Support was 'co-ordinated' by troops on the ground, and if so, to what extent.

As to how widespread it was generally, I think probably less than some might imagine, though much more significant from D-Day onwards on the Western Front where it effectively neutered the German motorised manouevering.

So my guess is that overall, CAS was much less significant than it is today, and was sporadic generally.

Nowadays, it is fundemental.  No Commander in their right mind would contemplate any operation (unless covert) without it.  I'd go as far as to say that Air Superiority can guarantee success, unless engaged in guerilla type operations.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
 
kawasaky

Rep: 22.2
votes: 5


PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:13 pm Post subject: Re: Was there much close air support in WW2? Reply with quote

mooxe wrote (View Post):
Was CAS very widespread in WW2? There were tons of airstrikes I know that. Were many actually called in by ground troops? There is an excellent system in Irag/Afghan where you can have CAS in just a few minutes or more. With comms not being as widespread throughout vehicles and men, and the fact there was more chaos to deal with back in WW2, I would assume CAS was not widely used. Airpower was probably doing more roaming and hunting then direct support of the troops.

Oh yes! As Dima stated, the German army used it a lot, although it included fighters on much higher level than people would expect it (Galland writes about it "The first and the last").
Soviets used it a lot too, but their reaction time was much slower than the German one (one of the reasons why the Germans put such a serious licking on the Soviets in the famous and much-lied-about battle of Prohorovka, just as an example). Soviet performance improved a lot in the second half of the war.
During the better part of the Overlord the Allies made a poor show of CAS, although it improved much later on (from week 5-6 and later during the war in ETO).

etc

In short, CAS was used a lot by all major belligerents, and it proved to be one of the corner stones of their respective operations.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
kawasaky

Rep: 22.2
votes: 5


PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: Was there much close air support in WW2? Reply with quote

take a look at this, there's a bit of good info:
http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/p4013coll2&CISOPTR=1830&CISOBOX=1&REC=1
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
US_Brake

Rep: 24.2
votes: 22


PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:34 pm Post subject: Re: Was there much close air support in WW2? Reply with quote

A decent documentary on this subject is The Military Channels' GUN CAMERA.

CCIV onward seemed to do a good job of introducing Air Power as en element of battle, not overpowered but can still turn the tide in a ciritical moment.

I always liked the RR & WF Jabbos Plug-Ins for CCIII. Would it be easy to convert them to COI?




Close Combat's most infamous SOB
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website GameRanger Account
 
Blackstump

Rep: 24.5
votes: 1


PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 4:21 am Post subject: Re: Was there much close air support in WW2? Reply with quote

Good article on how they did it in the Pacific...
RAF.[31]

[edit] Pacific and South Asia[edit] South Pacific
A RAAF ground control party during the Battle of Tarakan in 1945Main article: South West Pacific Theater of World War II
In November, 1942 units of the Australian and United States Armies were fighting the Japanese in the Battle of Buna-Gona, New Guinea. 4 Squadron of the Royal Australian Air Force was an army cooperation squadron flying support for the ground effort, in outdated two-seater CAC Wirraway trainers. They sometimes used the second seat to carry an observer. The local terrain was jungled; ground troops had difficulty in observing the enemy or in staying linked with one another. Therefore, the Wirraway pilots, with their superior observation, began directing artillery fire onto the Japanese from the air via radio, as well as carrying out their own strafing and bombing. One pilot, Pilot Officer J. Archer, even shot down a Japanese Zero, for the only known aerial victory by an Australian FAC.

In early 1943 the Japanese launched an offensive against Wau. On 3 February 1943, a 4 Squadron Wirraway recced (performed Reconnaissance mission) Japanese dispositions at 1:20 PM. It left, to return at 2:39 leading the Bristol Beaufighters of 30 Squadron RAAF into the target area. The Wirraway marked the target with tracer fire, and the Beaufighters struck. A Japanese prisoner captured shortly thereafter reported that out of the 60 troops in his vicinity, 40 had been killed by the air strike. Later, in December, 1944, 4 Squadron directed the US 7th Fighter Squadron as they supported an Australian army attack in the Battle of Shaggy Ridge.

The other cooperation squadron in the theater, 5 Squadron, also took up the forward air control role. Both squadrons were re-equipped with the CAC Boomerang, which was an Australian fighter-bomber containing many Wirraway components. The Boomerangs had performance comparable to enemy fighters, and became the original fast FACs.[32] Dissatisfaction with the poor target marking possible with tracer bullets led to 5 Squadron's use of 30 pound phosphorus bombs on Bougainville in 1944. During the Bougainville campaign, FACs from 5 Squadron directed as many as 20 Corsairs at a time in air strikes. With practice, ordnance came to be delivered as close as 150 yards from friendly troops.[32]

[edit] Aleutian Islands CampaignMain articles: Aleutian Islands Campaign and Battle of Attu
American aerial attackers had to contend with fog and low-lying cloud cover, as well as heavy Japanese defensive ground fire. The situation led to the use of forward air control. On 16 May 1943, General Eugene M. Landrum ordered his air chief of staff, Colonel William O. Eareckson to coordinate air strikes with ground operations for the invasion of Attu. Eareckson borrowed an OS2U Kingfisher from the USS Casco (AVP-12). Using the seaplane's low speed and maneuverability to his advantage, Eareckson flew reconnaissance missions to spot Japanese positions. He would then spiral up through the clouds to rendezvous with strike aircraft and either lead the strike into the targets or describe the target location to the fighter-bombers. Ground fire not only hit the Kingfisher; it sometimes punctured the plane's single float. Eareckson would land in shallow water, beach the plane, and plug the bullet holes with rubber plugs before resuming his mission.[33]

[edit] BurmaBy May 1944 the Air Forces in Burma had worked out the technique of forward air control. This was exercised by a party of one or two officers plus six to eight enlisted men. They approved targets selected by the Army, called up air strikes by radio, and if necessary guided the aircraft to the target. On occasion, liaison aircraft would observe the strike.[34] For the Chindit's Operation Thursday each column had a forward air controller to direct support from Mitchell and Mustang aircraft.[35][36]


"percute et percute velociter"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message GameRanger Account
 
LtReel

Rep: 17.9


PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 10:06 am Post subject: Re: Was there much close air support in WW2? Reply with quote

In 1944 at Tali-Ihantala and Vuosalmi battlefields air support was used "orchestrated" with heavy artillery fire. Both FiAF and Detachment Kuhlmey were used to attack advancing tanks, bridges, tarnsports etc. Area commander of FiAF, Col Richard Lorentz, and Kurt Kuhlmey got along well and co-operation had no friction. Lorentz had good relations with Radio Intelligence wizard Col Reino Hallamaa and he had first hand information on enemy movements. When support request came, Lorentz already had a plan for the need.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
dj

Rep: 157.5
votes: 9


PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 3:23 am Post subject: Re: Was there much close air support in WW2? Reply with quote

Dima wrote (View Post):
There was, especially with the German army.
Reaction time was much slower though, about 30-45mins.


Yeah but that was early war to 1942 and Ju-87 Stutka was already obsolete, poor range, poor armour.

You guys dominated the CAS role with the IL-2 Sturmovik "Black Death" from '43 - '45 it ruled the East Front.


What will the Revolution Change? - Youth Brigade
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
LtReel

Rep: 17.9


PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Was there much close air support in WW2? Reply with quote

Ah, digitalized archives are wonderful! I found a post in which there are links to Det. Kuhlmey's support requests in Karelia 1944:

Det. Kuhlmey's mission orders

Reel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: Was there much close air support in WW2? Reply with quote

Quote:
Yeah but that was early war to 1942 and Ju-87 Stutka was already obsolete, poor range, poor armour.

Not true - at Kursk, as an example, that was the main source of breaking through RA ATGs.
And even in 1945 the Germans managed to create tactical air superiority and used JaBos at good effect now and then.

Quote:
You guys dominated the CAS role with the IL-2 Sturmovik "Black Death" from '43 - '45 it ruled the East Front

CAS was always a weak side of RA during WW2.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
 
 
Post new topicReply to topic printer-friendly view Close Combat Series Forum Index -> The Mess


 
   
 


Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum




Forums ©





In August of 2004, Zappi, Homba, Bambam887, RedScorpion and MOOXE all pitched
in to create this Close Combat site. I would to thank all the people who have visited and
found this site to thier liking. I hope you had time to check out some of the great Close Combat
mods and our forums. I'd also like to thank all the members of our volunteer staff that have
helped over the years, and all our users that contributed to this site!