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savage1987swb

Rep: 9.6


PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:39 pm Post subject: Capturing a gun/tank/vehicle Reply with quote

Okay, so in the many battles I've had, there are often situations when one side captures a gun or something off the other. What does this mean in terms of gameplay? WHat is happening? And is it any different to simply destroying it?
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Dima

Rep: 80.5
votes: 14


PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:56 pm Post subject: Re: Capturing a gun/tank/vehicle Reply with quote

It's just for statistics, like KIA and WIA - both types go to irretrivable losses in CC.
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ArmeeGruppeSud

Rep: 9.5
votes: 7


PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:35 am Post subject: Re: Capturing a gun/tank/vehicle Reply with quote

In Close Combat games, the only time your men can capture and actually use any enemy equipment is when they forage small arms & ammo from dead or wounded enemy soldiers.

Even then, they can only use them during that particular battle, then they will revert back to their normal kit.

cheers

AGS

_____


@ AT_Stalky, do you WANT, or NEED, islamic influence in your society?

This question is NOT Rhetorical!

STILL WAITING FOR YOUR ANSWER
.
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kweniston

Rep: 23
votes: 1


PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:45 pm Post subject: Re: Capturing a gun/tank/vehicle Reply with quote

So no tank/gun/vehicle will be added to the forcepool? Shame, although maybe realistic with the different ammo, usage etc.

What happened in real life though? Was captured equipment used against the enemy, such as tanks/guns?
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southern_land

Rep: 72.2
votes: 11


PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:33 pm Post subject: Re: Capturing a gun/tank/vehicle Reply with quote

kweniston wrote (View Post):
So no tank/gun/vehicle will be added to the forcepool? Shame, although maybe realistic with the different ammo, usage etc.

What happened in real life though? Was captured equipment used against the enemy, such as tanks/guns?


http://www.achtungpanzer.com/ctpic.htm
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Manoi

Rep: 49.4
votes: 6


PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:11 am Post subject: Re: Capturing a gun/tank/vehicle Reply with quote

It could be a great feature to see intact captured weapons (light and heavy) appear later in your forcepool (with limited ammunitions). But for tanks and guns it could take several days before they appear (the time to train your men to use this new material).
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kweniston

Rep: 23
votes: 1


PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: Capturing a gun/tank/vehicle Reply with quote

Manoi wrote (View Post):
It could be a great feature to see intact captured weapons (light and heavy) appear later in your forcepool (with limited ammunitions). But for tanks and guns it could take several days before they appear (the time to train your men to use this new material).


Would this be moddable, or would a patch be needed? I suspect the latter.

Edit: I did a feature request for this at Matrix. Never know what they might conjure up.
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DarkScipio

Rep: 6.4


PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:25 am Post subject: Re: Capturing a gun/tank/vehicle Reply with quote

Manoi wrote (View Post):
It could be a great feature to see intact captured weapons (light and heavy) appear later in your forcepool (with limited ammunitions). But for tanks and guns it could take several days before they appear (the time to train your men to use this new material).


Werent captured tanks and vehicles not sent back to home/behind the front to be repaired and some men trained, instead of ever used by the troops who captured it?


http://www.therainforestsite.com
Click to help the rainforest. Only one second per Day.
http://www.dieregenwaldseite.de
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ArmeeGruppeSud

Rep: 9.5
votes: 7


PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:38 am Post subject: Re: Capturing a gun/tank/vehicle Reply with quote

DarkScipio wrote (View Post):
Werent captured tanks and vehicles not sent back to home/behind the front to be repaired and some men trained, instead of ever used by the troops who captured it?
Both

Some captured tanks/vehicles were sent to Germany where they were converted, often having German guns installed or with captured weapons such as Soviet 76.2mm ZIS-3 and F-22 guns (such as Marder series). Some tanks/vehicles were converted into other supplementary vehicles such as artillery tractors or self propelled guns eg.:
"15cm sFH 13/1(Sf) auf Gw Lorraine
This page has a list of such conversions
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/captured-tanks-used-by-the-german-armed-force.htm
 
Many guns and tanks were used "as is".

Sometimes, in the heat of battle, they would be captured and used immediatley e.g this account from the Battle of Seelow Heights:

Falkenhahn ordered his men to engage the enemy tanks with rockets, while another group used the smoke as concealment to run close to the tanks and hurl mines at them. Loud cheers rose from the ranks as the Germans captured Soviet armor. Although many of the tanks would not roll, the Germans operated their main guns, firing on the advancing Soviets. The tanks that could still be driven were taken back to the German positions and used as supplemental anti-tank pieces.

Read the whole account here:
http://wwarii.com/archives/zhukov/Assault%20at%20Seelow%20Heights.html
 
cheers

AGS

_____


@ AT_Stalky, do you WANT, or NEED, islamic influence in your society?

This question is NOT Rhetorical!

STILL WAITING FOR YOUR ANSWER
.
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Dima

Rep: 80.5
votes: 14


PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:39 pm Post subject: Re: Capturing a gun/tank/vehicle Reply with quote

Quote:
Read the whole account here:
http://wwarii.com/archives/zhukov/Assault%20at%20Seelow%20Heights.html

Bah, what a crap Smile.
A guy is just totally out of the question.

But anyway, f.e. during the RA counter attack at Prokhorovka, LAH units did use KO T-34 as stationary gun points.
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ArmeeGruppeSud

Rep: 9.5
votes: 7


PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:54 am Post subject: Re: Capturing a gun/tank/vehicle Reply with quote

Dima wrote (View Post):
Bah, what a crap Smile.
A guy is just totally out of the question.
Whats wrong Dima old mate?
Dont you view Colin D. Heaton and World War 2 magazine as credible sources?  Shocked

Dima wrote (View Post):
But anyway, f.e. during the RA counter attack at Prokhorovka, LAH units did use KO T-34 as stationary gun points.
Can you unquestionably prove this incredible allegation?  Wink

Cheers

AGS

_____


@ AT_Stalky, do you WANT, or NEED, islamic influence in your society?

This question is NOT Rhetorical!

STILL WAITING FOR YOUR ANSWER
.
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DAK_Legion

Rep: 36.2
votes: 16


PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: Capturing a gun/tank/vehicle Reply with quote

Hi!

maybe this video will help......

T-34 German  in Russia


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtJkyd3JJWE


heia Safari!!
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Dima

Rep: 80.5
votes: 14


PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: Capturing a gun/tank/vehicle Reply with quote

Quote:
Whats wrong Dima old mate?
Dont you view Colin D. Heaton and World War 2 magazine as credible sources?

same as in most of History Channel and Discovery series about EF - too many mistakes and just false information to take it as a credible source Sad.

Let's start from the start Smile.

Quote:
By 1945 the Eastern Front was on Germany's back porch. Soviet forces entered East Prussia in January of that year, throwing Adolf Hitler into a tirade. When German General Heinz Guderian, inspector of armored troops, requested that Hitler authorize the withdrawal of the 300,000-man force from the Kurland region, Hitler refused, condemning those soldiers to death. They would disappear in the marshland and the fog of war.

IIRC Hitler ordered some divisions to withdraw in early 1945 and they helped to stop the RA at Oder.
if they were withdrawn completely, that would free all the RA units around Kurland to reinforce other fronts.

Quote:
There was still one major obstacle to the Soviet advance--the rolling plains and plateaus of an area known as the Seelow Heights, only 35 miles from the German capital.

the main difficulties of this area were lakes and channels, not plateaus and plains.

Quote:
Not since 1210, when the Order of Teutonic Knights had forced the Poles out of Prussia and crossed the Vistula River, had an enemy approached the Prussian frontier from the east.

During 7-years war the Russians did capture Berlin Wink.

Quote:
The Soviets drove a wedge into Prussia, but their losses were heavy. Six Soviet infantry and two tank divisions were wiped out after a series of assaults on Vitebsk, Orsha, Allenstein and K?nigsberg.

I don't know why he lists Vitebsk and Orsha here as they were taken more than half a year ago and were not in Prussia, but it is obvious that he doesn't know that the RA didn't have Tank Divisions that time and of cause no Infantry division was lost that time.

And yes, Konigsberg was assaulted on April 6th 1945 - pretty same time as Berlin Wink.

Quote:
Konev ordered his armor to attack on a broad front, converging into a spearhead and then swinging around the left flank of the German defenders.

Konev was commander of the 1st Ukranian Front and his armies didn't take part in combat at Seelow Heights at all Wink.

Quote:
On April 8, after several smaller encounters, the Soviet armor proved inadequate, even with infantry support.

combat recoinassance at Seelow Heights started on April 13th.

Quote:
By the end of the first day of the assault, the Soviets were learning just how expensive the Seelow Heights were going to be. Soviet losses added up to 75 tanks, 2,250 killed, 3,400 wounded and 12 Ilyushin Il-2 Shturmovik fighter-bombers lost.

I dont know whom the Germans fought on April 8th, but on April 14th, first day of recoinassance in force, the whole 1st Belorussian Front lost 31 tank as total write off, 29 damaged and 29 due to technical malfunctions.  

Quote:
April 9 saw another massive effort by the Red Army. The first wave of T-34 medium tanks, numbering about 50, was utterly destroyed by rockets, Stukas, mines and Panzerfausts. The second wave attacked at 1150 hours, following the same route as its predecessor, hoping to take advantage of the cleared paths through the German minefield. Soviet fighters managed to keep the Stukas at bay, but nothing could overwhelm the German troops, who were equipped with anti-tank rockets. The second Soviet wave suffered a fate similar to that of the first, leaving 34 smoking wrecks and several hundred dead littering the open plains.

yeah, on April 15th the 1st Belorussian front lost 15 tanks as total write off, 10 damaged and 9 due to technical malfunctions.
And I keep it on and on and on....

The main assault of the 1st Belorussian Front started on April 16th, for this date the casualties were following:

1st Tank Army - 26 KIA, 117 WIA.
61th Army - 94 KIA, 204 WIA.
47th Army - 169 KIA, 977 WIA.
3rd Shock Army - 158 KIA, 483 WIA.
5th Shock Army - 369 KIA, 1298 WIA.
69th Army - 312 KIA, 1417 WIA.

71 tank as total write off, 77 tanks damaged and 40 tanks due to technical reasons.

Of them only 69A was attacking Seelow Heights, other could see them only through binoculars Wink.

Let's see how many lost 69A and 8GA in total during fight for Seelow:

8GA (number of men in RD (average number of men in RC) on 10.04.45/ number of men in RD (average number of men in RC) on 20.10.45):

35GRD - 4997(102) / 4347(64)
47GRD - 4882(99) / 3422(29)
57GRD - 4871(95) / 3347(2Cool
39GRD - 5046(113) / 4563(85)
79GRD - 5110(114) / 3319(20)
88GRD - 5008(109) / 3680(42)
27GRD - 5056(112) / 3061(26)
74GRD - 4963(108) / 3145(29)
82GRD - 4992(112) / 4629(90)

Support tank units: 54 IS-2, 22 T-34, 19 ISU-152, 58 SU-76 were lost as both damaged and total write offs, 536KIA/WIA.

69A (10-20.04.45):

4RD - 85KIA, 338WIA, 35 ill.
77GRD - 192KIA, 764WIA, 58 ill.
134RD - 57KIA, 245WIA, 3 non-combat, 43 ill.
247RD - 268KIA, 1251WIA, 1 non-combat, 44 ill.
117RD - 1KIA, 13WIA, 57 ill.
312RD - 149KIA, 469WIA, 24 ill.
370RD - 117KIA, 573WIA, 13 ill.
41RD - 267KIA, 480WIA, 13 ill.
283RD - 0KIA, 3WIA, 35 ill.
Support units: 252KIA, 800WIA, 18 non-combat, 148 ill.

11GTK was in area of 8GA and lost (16-22.04.45) 369KIA and 1291WIA, total write offs - 41 T-34, 3 IS-2, 2 SU-76, damaged - 94 T-34, 6 IS-2, 13 SU-85/SU-100, 5 SU-76.

Btw, after the actions were over, repair units of 1GTA have investigated 75 tanks and SPGs that of those which were destroyed during 16-22.04.45 and made a following report:

T-34-85:
88mm AP - 32 (59 hits).
75mm AP - 11 (11 hits).
AP of other calibers - 15 (20 hits).
PzF/RPzB - 5 (5 hits).
Aviation - 2 (2 hits).

IS-2:
88mm AP - 7 (13 hits).

ISU-122:
88mm AP - 2 (2 hits).
PzF/RPzB - 1 (1 hit).

So that doesn't look even close to:
Quote:
The first wave of T-34 medium tanks, numbering about 50, was utterly destroyed by rockets, Stukas, mines and Panzerfausts. The second wave attacked at 1150 hours, following the same route as its predecessor, hoping to take advantage of the cleared paths through the German minefield.


So you can see why it's funny to read such articles about uber germans killing zillions of T-34 Smile.
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ArmeeGruppeSud

Rep: 9.5
votes: 7


PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: Capturing a gun/tank/vehicle Reply with quote

Thankyou Dima for your quick, informative and detailed reply.

Maybe you should offer your services to WW2 magazine as an author, or at least an editor of historical accuracy. I'm sure the article does have elements of historical fact in amongst its inaccuracies.

Being a seeker of truth, i was confident that my brief challenge to you would unearth a wealth of information from Dima's data FACTory  Very Happy

cheers

AGS

_____


@ AT_Stalky, do you WANT, or NEED, islamic influence in your society?

This question is NOT Rhetorical!

STILL WAITING FOR YOUR ANSWER
.
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