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CCMMORTS

Rep: 0.8


PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:47 am Post subject: Re: Is CCS slowly dying? Reply with quote

I see
well there you have it. If you make CC into a full multiplayer game you don't even need to program AI for tactical decisions since those would all be made by the players. You only need AI for the psychology system (cower, surrender etc.) and the pathfinding.
But yeah, I can also understand the appeal for 3D. I mean if achtung panzer 43 was multiplayer that would be awesome. I mean the scenes I've seen in that game are pretty realistic.


''Where the iron crosses grow''
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general_solomon

Rep: 22.7
votes: 1


PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:16 am Post subject: Re: Is CCS slowly dying? Reply with quote

why dont we make our own cc style mulitiplayer game via a kickstarter? I am willing to fork out a couple grand to get it started. I personally do not like the arma style of games. first person has never appealed to me but i love the arma multiplayer fuctions.
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CCMMORTS

Rep: 0.8


PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:32 am Post subject: Re: Is CCS slowly dying? Reply with quote

If only I had the programming skills Rolling Eyes


''Where the iron crosses grow''
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:50 am Post subject: Re: Is CCS slowly dying? Reply with quote

Unfortunately, we won't get that all in one go because the developers are small. They can't pump millions into a game to make it great. They can only improve one or two things at a time. And they have to make a profit at the same time. So, unless Matrix pull a miracle, or a huge company buys the rights to CC and sets a huge team of programmers to it, I doubt we'll get what we want. -TMK

Very funny, the poor pitty pie Matrix argument again. While Matrix may not be one of the giant entertainment companies around, they can still pull over 20,000 customers on-line at a time. I don't know if anyone has noticed the incredible number of titles that have been released by Matrix. They just don't seem like they are suffering to me. The POOR leetle developers at Matrix. And POOR Matrix, they just dont' make that much profit.  Exclamation  Laughing

There is plenty of venture capital out there for anyone that has a good idea, and a good development team. It is just that compared to similar but more modernized genres, the CC "engine" has been determined to suck, and therefore relegated to the niche of slower headed, ageing gamers.

They CAN improve more than a few things at a time. They have elected by their OWN choice, NOT to do so. First the contract with Atomic and Destineer, required them to re-release certain titles. The Matrix business model that was in effect prior to the re-releases called for a minimal approach to make each game operational with the newest OS and DirectX.  Exclamation
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:36 am Post subject: Re: Is CCS slowly dying? Reply with quote

What we need is an improved game. Lots of people say the AI needs improving, and that's been an issue for years now. I keep going on about an improved/dynamic strategic map, and many people talk about 3D and things like that. -TMK

Oh really, an ISSUE to whom  Question  Close Combat was envisioned and developed with MULTIPLAYER in mind. Single player was there mostly to tide you over or let you practice between multiplayer games.

It just so happened that comparatively speaking the CC AI turned out to be pretty good, all things considered. I can point you to even map and counter games with AIs that suck so bad, it makes CCs AI look brilliant in comparison. And the AI, is NO different than the rest of CC. It has not seen significant enhancements for well over a decade.

It wasn't until the total demise of multiplayer gaming (for CC), that the real whining about the AI commenced in earnest. Mass multiplayer games (many military and FPS) are just WAY more popular. No one want's to watch jerky tanks moving on a 2d map where you have to strain your eyesight to discover the elevations in the terrain.
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:26 am Post subject: Re: Is CCS slowly dying? Reply with quote

Also, I don't own CCMT, but I guess that game may be better for multiplayer recorded battles. It's just a shame it's not popular. -TMK

Hi Again,

CCMT is not popular with gamers because CCMT is not a game.  Idea [slaps forehead]

Once upon a time over at CSO, they asked everyone if they would like 3x3 multiplayer like it's done at the USMC using CC. Everyone said yes. They lied.  Laughing  Exclamation

No one wants to play 1x1 multiplayer, much less multiplayer that involves more people.  Laughing

With these facts in mind, you gotta consider that the replay feature from CCMT is generally used to record Single Player battles. Observing these battles is fun, or can be if the battle is not a dud.

Most players, have no idea what the AI even does during a battle, since the only time they know anything about the AI, is when the AI's teams are visible to the Human Player. With replay you can monitor both sides.
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TheImperatorKnight

Rep: 30.4
votes: 1


PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:22 am Post subject: Re: Is CCS slowly dying? Reply with quote

Stwa

How many people bought PitF? 1,000? 10,000? I doubt it was more than that. They're not going to pump a lot of money into a game that's not selling too well. They'll pump it into games that are - like Panzer Corps - but not into poor old CC.

Quote:
They CAN improve more than a few things at a time. They have elected by their OWN choice, NOT to do so. First the contract with Atomic and Destineer, required them to re-release certain titles. The Matrix business model that was in effect prior to the re-releases called for a minimal approach to make each game operational with the newest OS and DirectX.


In PitF they had a free shot at it. They changed about 5 things. Almost everyone complained about most of them. And instead of this being the "last of the traditional Close Combat games" that they promised at release, they're now bringing out another traditional Close Combat game before they improve things. Why? Because it didn't sell well. Why? Because people don't like change (among other things like bad AI, huge maps, small force pools, multiplayer server etc).

Quote:
What we need is an improved game. Lots of people say the AI needs improving, and that's been an issue for years now. I keep going on about an improved/dynamic strategic map, and many people talk about 3D and things like that. -TMK

Oh really, an ISSUE to whom    Close Combat was envisioned and developed with MULTIPLAYER in mind. Single player was there mostly to tide you over or let you practice between multiplayer games.

It just so happened that comparatively speaking the CC AI turned out to be pretty good, all things considered. I can point you to even map and counter games with AIs that suck so bad, it makes CCs AI look brilliant in comparison. And the AI, is NO different than the rest of CC. It has not seen significant enhancements for well over a decade.

It wasn't until the total demise of multiplayer gaming (for CC), that the real whining about the AI commenced in earnest. Mass multiplayer games (many military and FPS) are just WAY more popular. No one want's to watch jerky tanks moving on a 2d map where you have to strain your eyesight to discover the elevations in the terrain.


The AI is great in CC2. And is ok in CC3. Beyond that, it starts to become a joke. This has to do with map sizes more than anything, but it's no wonder people didn't complain too much back in the 90's. The issue only became an issue recently. And whether or not this series was meant to be multiplayer or not, it isn't multiplayer. People are playing singleplayer more than multiplayer. So whether you like that or not, the AI needs improving. AI and full 3D are the two things I hear most players suggest for improvements.

Quote:
CCMT is not popular with gamers because CCMT is not a game.


Well that is an issue. Sometimes you have to sacrifice realism for gameplay.

Quote:
No one wants to play 1x1 multiplayer, much less multiplayer that involves more people.


Or probably because people don't like Modern Warfare as much as WW2? I'd love to play 3x3 CC multiplayer. Would make things a lot more interesting to watch and play. Would love to spectate on battles too, and learn from the pros.


I have a Close Combat Youtube Channel

My Small Maps Mod for Close Combat: Gateway to Caen. Install guide and discussion
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johnsilver

Rep: 61.3
votes: 4


PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:20 am Post subject: Re: Is CCS slowly dying? Reply with quote

Quote:
Achtung Panzer Kharkov 43  is exactly a close combat in 3D!


Sorry, but just have to add this about a game remember many on the old MS network abandoned CC over because it was "only 2d" when this "hot new 3d looking" game was coming out... Sudden Strike...

What a failure.. Probably some here that gave it a try even, I did also, even bought the thing, but was it shallow.


PeG-WW2 Campaigns Page
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:44 am Post subject: Re: Is CCS slowly dying? Reply with quote

The issue [Single Player] only became an issue recently. And whether or not this series was meant to be multiplayer or not, it isn't multiplayer. People are playing singleplayer more than multiplayer. So whether you like that or not, the AI needs improving. AI and full 3D are the two things I hear most players suggest for improvements. -TMK

Me thinks you are just NOT paying attention.  Laughing

And, like a lot of forumites, you enjoy detaching yourself from the facts.  Idea

And those facts are as follows.  Arrow

1. The legacy CC titles (CC2, CC3, CC4, and CC5), where all developed with the idea that CC would be most enjoyed in Multiplayer mode.

2. CCM was developed for USMC, and USMC through their RFP specified a mulitplayer simulation.

3. The re-releases (COI, CCMT, WAR, and TLD) were not intended to seriously enhance the products but rather to make them operational in the new environments. CC games were re-released with the idea that CC would be most enjoyed in Multiplayer mode.

4. CCM through TLD were developed and marketed under contract with various third parties. The contracts may have specified what could or could not be done with the games, beyond making them operational in the new environments.

5. LSA was an optional portion of the orignal contract with Atomic and Destineer. Even without the contract in hand, I doubt anyone specified (in said contract), "LSA should be primarily a single player game".  Laughing

So, no matter how much I have advocated over the years for enhances to Single Player, and no matter how much BS YOU spew in this thread. The facts are clear. No one that has been involved with CC over the years (its development or production) has considered the games to be primarily single player. In fact, everyone kept relying upon a resurgance of interest in Multiplayer, right up to PITF.  Exclamation   

And one last fact perhaps, Gateway to Caen notwithstanding. THE SERIES HAS RUN ITS COURSE. Its over. Its ALREADY in the BOOKS.

And in all that time, perhaps 15 years and numerous titles. NO-ONE that mattered in the production and marketing of CC, ever considered CC to be primarly a single player game. PERIOD  Exclamation

So, if what you are saying is YOU want 3D and YOU want better Single Player.  Question

DOOD, now days that is like advocating for PEACE ON EARTH or NIP FOR ALL BABIES. Razz

And, BTW, Me thinks they have ALREADY ANNOUNCED the 3D game.  Exclamation [slaps forehead]
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:41 am Post subject: Re: Is CCS slowly dying? Reply with quote

The issue [Single Player] only became an issue recently. And whether or not this series was meant to be multiplayer or not, it isn't multiplayer. People are playing singleplayer more than multiplayer. So whether you like that or not, the AI needs improving. AI and full 3D are the two things I hear most players suggest for improvements. -TMK

I hate to bring this up, and I do hope you understand, that I do not mean anything in any personal way, but ...

YOU ARE COMPLETELY CLUELESS  Shocked  Exclamation

Searching just for the phrase "AI" using the CCS internal search toy, reveals 239 matches. So, here is a thread by wallach79 Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 6:28 am Post subject: AI behaviour.

Here you will see complaints regarding the AI, single player gaming, suggestions for its improvement, and the usual response, which has always been, and will always remain.  Arrow

User Complains About AI, Suggests Improvements
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:00 am Post subject: Re: Is CCS slowly dying? Reply with quote

Sorry, but just have to add this about a game remember many on the old MS network abandoned CC over because it was "only 2d" when this "hot new 3d looking" game was coming out... Sudden Strike... What a failure.. Probably some here that gave it a try even, I did also, even bought the thing, but was it shallow. -johnsilver

Hi johnsilver  Exclamation  I hope you are doing well.

Good point. Just being 3D doesn't necessarily solve anything important. But in the case of CC the stated reason for employment of a 3D engine was to provide MUCH better calculations of LOS and LOF. I think the Marketing Director (Slitherene?) mentioned this last year when he was posting about 3D possiblilities for CC.

When he was here, I mentioned Rome TW alot (he probably wan't impressed  Laughing ). But, someone (probably an Aussie) reminded me that CAs AI (for even RTW) sucked. I thought about that for a while, and you know, he was right, it does suck.  Shocked

So being 3D may or may not be useful in correcting single player deficiencies. And I do assume that we would ALL agree that Creative Assembly is one of those Indie developers that IS well funded, and their single player AI sucks.  Razz

And I would implore people to check out this thread. While I believe the Single Player experience can be improved, it will not (in our lifetimes) overcome the basic issue that these posters describe in 5 simple posts.  Arrow

User Complains About AI, Suggests Improvements
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TheImperatorKnight

Rep: 30.4
votes: 1


PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:17 pm Post subject: Re: Is CCS slowly dying? Reply with quote

Stwa wrote (View Post):
YOU ARE COMPLETELY CLUELESS  Shocked  Exclamation


Maybe  Razz

Ok, my opinions aside for a minute - what changes do you think will help the series? Because right now, all you seem to be doing is saying "change is bad even if the series dies".

Also, how old are you, out of curiosity?

At the end of the day, all I'm saying is in order to get more people to play CC, the singleplayer has to be improved. That's all I'm saying. Which is why I welcome the change in campaign style proposed with the next CC games. If it is a Panzer Corps styled campaign, the singleplayer will be improved, even if the AI isn't.

And I believe that multiplayer should be a big part of it too. But there's no point improving multiplayer if there's only a handful of people out there playing CC multiplayer. We need more players, and to get that (I think) we need a better singleplayer experience and good graphics, sounds etc.


I have a Close Combat Youtube Channel

My Small Maps Mod for Close Combat: Gateway to Caen. Install guide and discussion
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Silverpen

Rep: 28.4
votes: 1


PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: Is CCS slowly dying? Reply with quote

STWA,

   Hi there.Hey who made you the "expert" about CCS? CC is and has always been about multi player????? Are you jesting? Opinions are one
   thing.Where are your facts? Look if a computer program can beat world renowned players at chess or at bridge we can certainly improve the
   CS's AI .

   Yah kids like multi players shoot em up more like they do the walking dead. CC is about conflict between men and armaments and the
   strategy/tactics required to win.Most CC players (see survey) are likely older and yes play alone and want a better AI..naturally.

   PITF yes has better 32 bit graphics and other special effects but is not 3D.So what!.

   CCS has always attracted and been enjoyed by a cadre of players (likely many military buffs) numbering thousands not hundred of thousands.
   Thanks to Avalon Hill,Atomic, Microsoft, Matrix and the others, especially all those imaginative hard working enthusiasts who provide us with
   great mods.

    QED
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:15 am Post subject: Re: Is CCS slowly dying? Reply with quote

Because right now, all you seem to be doing is saying "change is bad even if the series dies".  Also, how old are you, out of curiosity? -TIK

Dood, the neat thing about the Forum is you can excise quotes from the other posts. SO PLEASE find the quote where I SAY  Arrow  

"change is bad even if the series dies"

Regarding the age question,  Arrow   Same to ya.  Exclamation  

Up to now I was under the belief that the 2D series would come to an end with PitF. So, I suppose they did another title while they are waiting on the 3D version. So, if the 2D series, is in fact over, it is pointless to make recommendations to them (the developers) now. It is in the books!

I have NO recommendations to any of the developers regarding the 3D series. I have no idea what they are contemplating, but I also DO NOT feel that THE BLOOD, or the others involved with this title, to be ignorant people.

It is also my belief that the Single Player AI sucks even in RTW, where the developers probably threw a lot of money at it. But despite all that, I still enjoy single player battles in RTW a great deal.

BTW, since 2004, I can count the number of multiplayer battles, in which I have participated, on one hand.


Last edited by Stwa on Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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Pzt_Kanov

Rep: 14.2
votes: 9


PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:27 am Post subject: Re: Is CCS slowly dying? Reply with quote

The sad thing or maybe the great thing, depending how you look at it, about the AI in close combat is that we as consumers can modify it to become a ruthless attacker or a tenacious defender. And that is just by modifying some lines in the data files!

Thanks to TT for showing the way!


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Ivan_Zaitzev

Rep: 56.1
votes: 3


PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:27 am Post subject: Re: Is CCS slowly dying? Reply with quote

I wouldn't mind something similar to Men of War for the 3D Close Combat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_PVP8_45_g

Also, I have heard that for RTW, the Darthmod does some pretty awesome things for the AI. I was about to download the one for Napoleon but never got around to doing it at the end.


The real Close Combat starts when you are out of ammo.
Have you hugged your AT Gun today?
My Youtube Channel
http://closecombat2.blogspot.com
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general_solomon

Rep: 22.7
votes: 1


PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:52 am Post subject: Re: Is CCS slowly dying? Reply with quote

Close combat is like the old car that you do not want get rid of even thought its taking up space and everyone and their grand mother as saying to trash it.

I wiill never give my cc game. ever. even though I rarely play them now.

If close combat went 3d I would love it to have a full spectrum warrior feel. where you as the squad leader or commander direct your squad and they are smart enough to comply with your orders.
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Tejszd

Rep: 133.6
votes: 19


PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:53 am Post subject: Re: Is CCS slowly dying? Reply with quote

To me one of the biggest issues with CC is that while each version tends to add/build on the previous release it also tends to lose something too.
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schrecken

Rep: 195
votes: 15


PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:53 am Post subject: Re: Is CCS slowly dying? Reply with quote

There was a plan once at Matrix to add all new features to each game... just not use them if they were not required in a certain release... but that was long ago.
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pvt_Grunt

Rep: 99.7
votes: 5


PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:59 am Post subject: Re: Is CCS slowly dying? Reply with quote

schrecken wrote (View Post):
There was a plan once at Matrix to add all new features to each game... just not use them if they were not required in a certain release... but that was long ago.


It seems the Slitherine business plan changed that, and made their multiplayer lobby the only way to connect. Surely it would have been easier to leave the old direct connect code and add to it.
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