Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:30 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine
Yes, the US did invent the concentration camp but actually, it's not central to my argument. The US used concentration camps in which thousands died of disease and summary executions. -sieterayov
Although the first modern concentration camps used to systematically dissuade rebels from fighting are usually attributed to the British during the Boer War, in the Spanish-American War, forts and camps were used by the Spanish in Cuba to separate rebels from their agricultural support bases. Upwards of 200,000 Cubans died by disease and famine in these environments. -wiki
I guess, I have finally read enough to understand what was happening in these turn of the century conflicts between the colonial powers and the rebels.
These camps were not intended for extermination/genocide at all. But in every case (Phillipines, Cuba, and South Africa), the necessary food and medical supplies needed to sustain the civilans in their camp was underestimated or could not be provided, and generally malnutrition lead to disease and widesperad death. The numbers at the American camps seems to be lower than the Camps in Cuba and South Africa, with one source noting 8,000 deaths in the Phillipines.
So far, I have not encountred one article that describes the Americans as the "inventor" of the concentration camp, but this article attributes the FIRST modern concentration camp to the British.
Not to mention, I wouldn't call internment camps (1940's) concentration camps, and would stop short of calling what you are describing as concentration camps the Indian internment camps.
What you personally call anything is also irrelevant to this discussion.
[quote]Was the trail of tears a bloodbath? it certainly was. My father in law passed away 10 years ago at the age of 88 and was bitter, a full blooded Cherokee, as is my wife. Still, that is not running people into buildings and poisoning them with -0- chance of survival. many Cherokee's made the trip to North Carolina, as hard as it was.
Nobody cited the Trail of tears as an example of US using a concentration camp, also irrelevant to this discussion.
No sir, it is you that twists facts and the arguments put before you in this thread.
Allow me to re-post-
Do you even bother to read the references you supply?
".. the term "concentration camp" today carries many of the connotations of "extermination camp" (or "death camp"), and is sometimes used synonymously with these terms by people who are unaware of its original pre-1933 usage. Not all Nazi concentration camps were "extermination camps". "
Clearly I am someone aware of its pre-1933 usage, but believe about me what you will.
Your pedantry, however, serves only to distract yourself from the original point which you have nowhere even attempted to refute, that with regards to raw figures of killing, the US ruling class holds the crown over all contenders.
Yes, the US did invent the concentration camp but actually, it's not central to my argument. The US used concentration camps in which thousands died of disease and summary executions. -sieterayov
These camps were not intended for extermination/genocide at all. But in every case (Phillipines, Cuba, and South Africa), the necessary food and medical supplies needed to sustain the civilans in their camp was underestimated or could not be provided, and generally malnutrition lead to disease and widesperad death. The numbers at the American camps seems to be lower than the Camps in Cuba and South Africa, with one source noting 8,000 deaths in the Phillipines.
So far, I have not encountred one article that describes the Americans as the "inventor" of the concentration camp, but this article attributes the FIRST modern concentration camp to the British.
So chronologically, the British pipped the US by a few months.
Do you contend that the US went to South Africa to study civilian internment techniques and then went to apply what they had learned in the Philippines? No? In that case they needed no instruction and they invented the concentration camp.
Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:37 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine
Yes, the US did invent the concentration camp but actually, it's not central to my argument. The US used concentration camps in which thousands died of disease and summary executions. -sieterayov
BTW, me thinks this is the explanation for the summary executions. Harsh indeed, but of imprisioned combants, and therefore outside the realm of all definitions of concentration camp, which I believe requires us to consider the interments of civilians. Maybe you were trying to lead us to believe the American's were executing civilians?
What a tangled web you weave, when first you practice to deceive.
"A summary execution is a variety of execution in which a person is accused of a crime and then immediately killed without benefit of a full and fair trial. This includes show trials, but is usually understood to mean capture, accusation, and execution all conducted during a very short span of time relative to the severity of the punishment. Summary executions have been practiced by police, military, and paramilitary organizations and are frequently associated with guerrilla warfare, counter-insurgency, terrorism, and any other situation which involves a breakdown of the normal procedures for handling accused prisoners (either civilian or military)."
And if I am not mistaken, the pre 1933 definition of concentration camp does NOT require violence to the internees of the camp. Only the post 1933 defintion (an extermination camp actually) requires that, and it also requires the pre-planned intention to exterminate ALL of the internees. It would be logical if the the camp included GAS CHAMBERS, there is some evidence for pre-meditation. You know, a system that could kill alot of internees in a short amount of time.
Could you please try to keep your arguments on point.
And also notice the "war of extermination" that Bell was planning, seems to be refering to enemy combatants, not the civilians that were interned in the safe zones of the Phillipine Camps.
I'm glad you're learning at last about early US imperialism and its extermination policies. It's a shame you should attempt to justify them as you do so. With regard to what the US called "safe zones," at Dachau, they were trying to free the Jews through helping them to work, it was the motto on the camp gate. Or is it just the US military that you believe unconditionally? For whom were the zones safe?
Yes, the US did invent the concentration camp but actually, it's not central to my argument. The US used concentration camps in which thousands died of disease and summary executions. -sieterayov
The Spannish camps in Cuba seem to predate the American camp in the Phillipines?
[color=red][i][b]After Arsenio Martínez Campos had failed to pacify the Cuban rebellion, the Conservative government of Antonio Cánovas del Castillo sent Weyler out to replace him. This selection met the approval of most Spaniards, who thought him the proper man to crush the rebellion. While serving as a Spanish general, he was called "Butcher Weyler" because hundreds of thousands of people died in his concentration camps.
This article goes on to state that Weyler learned this "tactic" by studying Tcumseh Sherman in Civil War days.
You may have found an example of concentration camps that predate US and British use, but the reference to Sherman during the civil war is unsupported and I can find no supporting reference to it on any web search. I did find an article detailing Hitler's inspiration for his camps, however, which I'm sure will be of interest to you-
Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine
Quote:
but the reference to Sherman during the civil war is unsupported and I can find no supporting reference to it on any web search
Just Sherman burning down an entire city that was of NO strategic value, had NO soldiers in it, nor garrison in it and killed more slaves and women than elderly white men proves that he was a war criminal alone at Atlanta, not to mention his path of rape, rob, burn and then burn, rape, rob some more all along the southern path he was on.
What kind of documentary evidence was needed? Just follow the bodies and burn out land was all that was needed, or do you also deny the holocaust ever occurred as well???
but the reference to Sherman during the civil war is unsupported and I can find no supporting reference to it on any web search
Just Sherman burning down an entire city that was of NO strategic value, had NO soldiers in it, nor garrison in it and killed more slaves and women than elderly white men proves that he was a war criminal alone at Atlanta, not to mention his path of rape, rob, burn and then burn, rape, rob some more all along the southern path he was on.
What kind of documentary evidence was needed? Just follow the bodies and burn out land was all that was needed, or do you also deny the holocaust ever occurred as well???
None of which demonstrates that Sherman employed concentration camps of any description. Not saying he didn't, but I've seen no evidence.
Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:26 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine
Johnsilver,
I thought I would share this reservation map with you. I live about 200 yards off the Salt River reservation (near Phoenix). We are trying to get a house in an Anglo development adjacent to the map reference for the Yavapi Res, close to Fort McDowel.
The Western side of Navajo Res looks like the moon. There is not much water up there either. The Eastern side is very elevated. In the NE there is also the Painted Desert, and the Petrified Forest.
If you were to superimpose a map of AZ public lands (not administered locally), then the amount of AZ land shrinks down to a much smaller space.
So, I wonder if there was a referendum in AZ, certainly there would have to be more choices than what was provided on the Crimea ballot.
And in what order should the choices be listed on the ballot.
For instance,
1. Join Mexico
2. Join California
3. Join Navajo Res
4. Join Apache Res
...
5. Become Independent
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:15 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine
OK,
I am ready to move on to genocide of the indigenous within the modern borders of the USA. At least here, this topic will be more dear to myself. I won't speak for johnsilver.
But, this is really the Ukraine thread, and the forumites may want it back for that purpose. I intended to get back to Ukraine, it just didn't happen.
But, it is clear to me No genocide occurred in the Phillipine War, and the notion the the USA "invented" the concentration camp is laughable. It appears the tactic of seperating guerillas from their civilian supports was applied, and perhaps studied at the US War department, even by the Spanish, prior to the conflicts in Cuba and the Phillipines.
The civilians in the Phillipines were given a deadline to move into tent cities (concentration camps) in order to avoid a scortched earth policy that would commence in the areas adjacent to the camps. In effect, they authorties were trying to protect the civilians. But malaria, dengue, yellow fever, and dysentry took their toll.
If seiterayov feels that strongly about it he could edit any of the Wiki articles, and then supply them as proof the Americans invented the concentration camp.
But he supplied no credible reference that say this, and I could not find them in the Wiki.
But what is worse, sieterayov tried to lead this forum to believe that the United States tried to establish German style extermination camps in the Phillipines. For that, I not only call him a troll ... I call him a liar.
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:12 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine
Ok back on topic...
That is a wrap - Putin just declared Crimea annexed to RF.
"March 18 (Reuters) - Defying Ukrainian protests and Western sanctions, Russian President Vladimir Putin signed a treaty in Moscow on Tuesday making Crimea part of Russia again but said he did not plan to seize any other regions of Ukraine.
On the peninsula, a Ukrainian serviceman was killed when a base still held by Kiev came under attack in the main town of Simferopol, the first death in Crimea from a military clash since Russia seized control three weeks ago.
Kiev said the attackers had been wearing Russian military uniforms and responded by authorising its soldiers in Crimea to use weapons to protect their lives, reversing previous orders that they should avoid using arms against attack."
I am ready to move on to genocide of the indigenous within the modern borders of the USA. At least here, this topic will be more dear to myself. I won't speak for johnsilver.
But, this is really the Ukraine thread, and the forumites may want it back for that purpose. I intended to get back to Ukraine, it just didn't happen.
But, it is clear to me No genocide occurred in the Phillipine War, and the notion the the USA "invented" the concentration camp is laughable. It appears the tactic of seperating guerillas from their civilian supports was applied, and perhaps studied at the US War department, even by the Spanish, prior to the conflicts in Cuba and the Phillipines.
The civilians in the Phillipines were given a deadline to move into tent cities (concentration camps) in order to avoid a scortched earth policy that would commence in the areas adjacent to the camps. In effect, they authorties were trying to protect the civilians. But malaria, dengue, yellow fever, and dysentry took their toll.
If seiterayov feels that strongly about it he could edit any of the Wiki articles, and then supply them as proof the Americans invented the concentration camp.
But he supplied no credible reference that say this, and I could not find them in the Wiki.
But what is worse, sieterayov tried to lead this forum to believe that the United States tried to establish German style extermination camps in the Phillipines. For that, I not only call him a troll ... I call him a liar.
It does appear that concentration camps predate the US and British use of them in the Phillipines and Boer war, I concede that. The rest is right wing mouth froth from someone whose interest is not in revealing the concealed truths of history but in continuing to conceal the ruthless brutality of US imperialism. Hence, while I have at no time suggested that the US used "German style extermination camps in the Phillipines" Stwa maintains that in forcibly herding Filipinos into concentration camps, in which thousands died "they authorties [sic] were trying to protect the civilians".
This is the twisted rationale of police state advocates and fascists, the social milieu that justifies any crime by US imperialism in pursuit of maintaining its global hegemony. The entire argument is twisted by Stwa on a detail, to avoid the substance. The fact remains that the US killed thousands of Filipinos in concentration camps, in a brutal colonial war which, by conservative estimates, claimed the lives of 200 000 Filipino civilians.
Tellingly, while there is no crime of US imperialism these apologists will not attempt to spin in a favourable, humanist light, the alleged crimes of the Union in the Civil War, which abolished human beings as private property in the US, remain a source of rancour. Know what you're dealing with.
Where this discussion started- in raw terms of people it kills, the US ruling class leaves all contenders far behind. After several days of right wing obfuscation, the essential point I made, then, remains unchallenged. My assertion that the US invented the concentration camp maybe innacurate, but the liar here is Stwa. I need no bold, enlarged or coloured font to point that out.
Last edited by sieterayos on Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:36 am; edited 1 time in total
That is a wrap - Putin just declared Crimea annexed to RF.
"March 18 (Reuters) - Defying Ukrainian protests and Western sanctions, Russian President Vladimir Putin signed a treaty in Moscow on Tuesday making Crimea part of Russia again but said he did not plan to seize any other regions of Ukraine.
On the peninsula, a Ukrainian serviceman was killed when a base still held by Kiev came under attack in the main town of Simferopol, the first death in Crimea from a military clash since Russia seized control three weeks ago.
Kiev said the attackers had been wearing Russian military uniforms and responded by authorising its soldiers in Crimea to use weapons to protect their lives, reversing previous orders that they should avoid using arms against attack."
No, it's not a wrap. It moves to a new phase of pressure and provocations on Russia.
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:48 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine
Quote:
The Western side of Navajo Res looks like the moon. There is not much water up there either. The Eastern side is very elevated. In the NE there is also the Painted Desert, and the Petrified Forest.
1st thing I noticed along the drive was lack of water STWA and the deep water pumps, like oil well pumps at many places in that barren place in the NE. It's remote, but the "charm" factor of it and the Navajo people to my wife were very comforting and inviting. She got along quite well with them. We would be able to go there, though as you know it's not exactly.. Normal to what most people are used to and I am not native American myself. All on a see how she can do basis before we got a house possibly in AZ.
Don't think the referendum idea works in AZ. The government guarantees the tribes those lands now and they have already taken away all of the good lands as it is and left them with the back wash, or desert left overs.. There is nothing left to take. Every other minority in this country is treated better as it is. Why would they take the time to kicking around the native Americans a little bit more?
Just to avoid any confusion, I am not Native American per se, but there are several in my expanded family up two generations. They are dead and gone now, but while I was growing up, they could always be counted on to provide a story or two.
Yes, the Navajo Nation and NE AZ is very rugged. So try for Salt River Res. I have no idea about the Tribal Rules.
In the map everything East of Pima Road is the Res. Talking Stick Fields is a big MLB Spring training facility.
The Pavilions is a mega outdoor shopping center. Everything between Pima and Hwy 101 is basically business parks of some kind. East of Hwy 101 is the reservation proper, with schools, residences, and agricultual areas.
I live west of Pima Rd, just off the reservation.
Last edited by Stwa on Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:06 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine
Quote:
Did anyone else laugh at the sanctions?
absolutely rediculous, especially against Mizulina becourse she is "Duma State Deputy"....there are 400+ more Duma State Deputies - now they feel very sorry to be forgotten and are preparing symmetric answer...
she is just crazy (she really is) and in charge of all these anti-gay laws - prolly that's a reason why she is under sanctions now :)
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:25 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine
And you probably know that yesterday (19th of March) the new prime-minister of Ukraine Yatsenuk has refused to sign the association agreement with the EU after checking this document so looks like a circle is complete...
And you probably know that yesterday (19th of March) the new prime-minister of Ukraine Yatsenuk has refused to sign the association agreement with the EU after checking this document so looks like a circle is complete...
That is interesting. I doubt there was anything in it he didn't know about.
Possible explanations would be, pressure from autarchic Neo-Nazi elements, or, far more likely, particularly given the close ties between Nuland and "Yats," its a manoeuvre by US to ensure Germany doesn't get the control of Ukraine it has always wanted. Ukraine can't stand alone, will find it very difficult to approach Russia, so who's waiting with open arms?
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:11 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine
Quote:
That is interesting. I doubt there was anything in it he didn't know about.
well one thing is to be in opposition and yell that a goverment doesn;t want to be in the EU and another is to be in goverment and to sign a document that would eventually kill half of the East Ukraine industry....
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum You cannot attach files in this forum You can download files in this forum
In August of 2004, Zappi, Homba, Bambam887, RedScorpion and MOOXE all pitched
in to create this Close Combat site. I would to thank all the people who have visited
and found this site to thier liking. I hope you had time to check out some
of the great Close Combat mods and our forums. I'd also like to thank
all the members of our volunteer staff that have helped over
the years, and all our users that contributed to this site!
