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sieterayos

Rep: 13.4


PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:21 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Stwa wrote (View Post):
On January 12, 2010, the court of appeals in Kiev opened hearings into the "fact of genocide-famine Holodomor in Ukraine in 1932–33", in May 2009 the Security Service of Ukraine had started a criminal case "in relation to the genocide in Ukraine in 1932–33". In a ruling on January 13, 2010 the court found Stalin and other Bolshevik leaders guilty of genocide against the Ukrainians. -wiki




YUSHCHENKOISM
As president, Yushchenko initiated substantial government propaganda initiatives. In July 2005, he established an Institute of National Memory,assigned the archives of the former KGB (now the SBU,
Sluzhba Bez- peki Ukrainy, the Ukrainian Security Service) formal propagandistic duties and supported the creation of a “Museum of Soviet Occupation”in Kyiv (Jilge, 2008: 174). Yushchenko appointed the young activist Volodymyr V’’iatrovych (b. 1977) director of the SBU archives. V’’iatrovych combined his position as government-appointed memory manager with ultra-nationalist activism; he was simultaneously director of an OUN(b) front organization, the Center for the Study for the Liberation Movement. State institutions disseminated a sanitized, edifyingly patriotic version of the history of the “Ukrainian national liberation movement,” the leaders of which were presented in iconographic form as heroic and saintly ?gures, martyrs of the nation (Rasevych, 2010; Rudling, 2011c: 26–33, 2012b).Yushchenko’s myth making had two central components. The ?rst was the presentation of the 1932–1933 famine as “the genocide of the Ukrainian nation,” a deliberate attempt to exterminate the Ukrainians which, his myth-makers claimed, resulted in the death of 10 million people in the republic.4
The other component was a heroic cult of the OUN(b), the UPA and their leaders. The “memory managers” juxtaposed the genocidal Soviet rule with the self-sacri?cial heroism of the OUN-UPA, producing a teleological narrative of suffering (the famine) and resistance (the OUN-UPA) leading to redemption (independence, 1991). Curiously, Yushchenko’s legitimizing historians presented their instrumentalized use of history as “truth,” which they juxtaposed to “Soviet myths.” Wilfried Jilge, a historian at the University of Leipzig, writes that “[i]t takes place by means of discourse, rituals, and symbols and uses the past to provide legitimization and to mobilize the population for political purposes. . . . A reconstructed historical memory is created as ‘true memory’ and then contrasted with ‘false Soviet history’ ”(Jilge, 2007:104–105). Thus, Valentyn Nalyvaichenko, SBU director under Yushchenko, described the task of his agency as being to disseminate “the historical truth of the past of the Ukrainian people,” to “liberate Ukrainian history from lies and falsi?cations and to work with truthful documents only” (Jilge, 2008:179). Ignoring the OUN’s antisemitism, denying its participation in anti- Jewish violence, and overlooking its fascist ideology, Nalyvaichenko and his agency presented the OUN as democrats, pluralists, even righteous rescuers of Jews during the Holocaust (Rudling, 2011c: 26–33).

http://www.academia.edu/2481420/_The_Return_of_the_Ukrainian_Far_Right_The_Case_of_VO_Svoboda_in_Ruth_Wodak_and_John_E._Richardson_eds._Analyzing_Fascist_Discourse_European_Fascism_in_Talk_and_Text_London_and_New_York_Routledge_2013_228-255
 
An instructive study in how "democrats" create the ideological compost for the growth of fascism. The same is true in the west Where immigrants "steal our jobs" the unemployed "steal our taxes" Roma "steal our possessions" counter-posed to "our armed forces protect us from tyranny."
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sieterayos

Rep: 13.4


PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:28 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

The only thing that I don’t have found in his words, and it’s a key point, it’s the following: after the collapse of capitalism what we all will do? I don’t have found nothing of really concrete about “the day after” (it can be my fault, even if old marxists I knew never given me a “solution”, just a generic useless reply.).  

That's right, there is no prescription in Marx's writing for "the day after" which is never concrete until it arrives. The more precise the prediction, the more specific the situation it refers to. His materialist approach  precluded making prophesies for particular situations he had no way of anticipating.  As you know, he analysed what was and showed how it became what is. From that, he identified the laws of of social development and that in capitalism there are insurmountable contradictions which require revolution to permit further evolution. By identifying the nature of the contradictions he was able to propose a general solution. More than that he could not do. Science is not religion.


You say “democratic control of working class”. I ask you: how? With the elections of representatives? Elections every how many years? Who decide and how decide this kind of things? Constitutions will be written? If yes from who?

Again, we cannot anticipate the exact form democratic control will take in situations we cannot anticipate, only that it is necessary to make property work for society and to regulate an economy. What we know from history is that in the moments of intense class struggle, the working class creates organs of control and organisation which can become the basis of a revolutionary government. It really would be pedantic, even counter-revolutionary should the form of democracy not conform to our preconceptions,  to impose a schema of how things must be on a situation that does not yet exist.

Who decide what to produce?
Again, the structure cannot be predetermined and many should be tried, to find the most efficient for the various levels of economy and local circumstances. In general, decision making must be accountable to producers and consumers and involve the broadest possible consultation.

Who assure me that the elected will not became corrupted like now? What about the role of justice courts and their neutrality? What about the "state-violence" and its use?

There are no guarantees. History doesn't give them, least of all revolutions. The historical rule is that corruption and inequality flow from generalised want. To control corruption until basic needs and a substantial number of material desires can be easily satisfied for all, representatives of a workers' state must in general be subject to recall and replacement.

No courts are neutral. So long as they are required, they enforce the laws and morality of the empowered class. So long as there are crises and emergencies, there will be a tendency towards corruption which must be countered with oversight by workers' representatives.

The state, including a workers's state, is organised violence to protect the ruling class. In so far as a workers state exists to oversee inequality it is also bourgeois and the working class needs protection and safeguards from its own state. A solution to this dilemma has not been found in the limited historical experience.

What about the free to think?  Etc. Etc. I can continue for hours but I think that my position and my question is clear. Finally, all these questions have a common factor: human brain desires, also the human brain of the “working class future leaders” will desire.

Freedom to think what? Any state allows only the freedoms it can safely afford. If counter-revolutionary thought risks becoming counter-revolutionary action, it may require repression depending on the situation. If thought is repressed to the point that it stifles initiative and creativity, society becomes moribund and decays.

Material desires of individuals become anti-social where there is insufficient wealth to satisfy needs and substantial "wants". As above, the danger of corruption persists until society's productive forces alleviate its root and a socialist culture negates the individualism of bourgeois culture. I use the term negate in the Hegelian/Marxist sense of destroying form to preserve content. Marxism is not opposed to the individual and its rights, but views the individual in their relation to society.

Social democracies (that unfortunately or are dying, or exist no more) were not perfect, they were far to be perfect, just, in my opinion, good enough considering the natural “aberration” of the human race. Anyway, I’m really curious about the mechanisms of the “day after capitalism”. Thanks for your attention.

Social Democracies flourished in the post war period of nationally regulated economies. With capital locked in the nation state, it could not look abroad for higher returns when the workers went on strike for better conditions and pay. The consequent reduction of profit on capital investment, together with trade imbalances which undermined the gold backed US$ and therefore the framework of the entire arrangement, made the Thatcher/Reagan era deregulation inevitable under capitalism.

I will not go into the role of Social Democracy in maintaining capitalist social relations, that it was a form of capitalist rule based on class compromise. It is enough to point out that it could only be made to appear viable for workers in the conditions described above. Remove that and, as you say, social democracy is dead. I do not mourn its demise or that of Stalinism, another bourgeois current in the workers' movement.

That's my understanding.
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Drizzt

Rep: 114.3
votes: 9


PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

To Sieterayos: thanks for your exhaustive reply. As you maybe can imagine, with some things you say I agree, with some others not (or only partially). Speaking in general, I doubt that a system like this can be maintained without constant repression and leaders reasonably fixed to manage “the chaos” (chaos = instances of the new ruling class, millions of people). Anyway, it can be I’m too pessimist about human nature, who knows? History will see it.

Drizzt
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:03 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Sorry, at sea so can't post much due to bad connection.

Stalk,

Don't worries, no danger for the Baltic states unless presidents flees to the RF and NATO dissapears.

As for Ukraine - there will be no war Wink.
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MajorFrank

Rep: 41.8
votes: 6


PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:52 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Dima wrote (View Post):


As for Ukraine - there will be no war Wink.


Good to hear.  :)

Peace, bro, and Close Combat.  Wink
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dj

Rep: 123.9
votes: 7


PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:14 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Ukrainian-American Simon Ostrovsky was just released by pro-Russian factions.  He said Ukrainian town thugs with machetes, shotguns, AK-47's had a bounty on him to capture.  They blindfolded him, moved to cellar, beaten for 10 minutes, and threatened that they would kill him.  Ostrovsky exposed how he found Russian Cossack soldier in Ukraine.  In Crimea he said troops were professional Russian  army forces with Russian license plates on trucks.  East Ukraine is lawless with no professional military organization...lots of armed gangsters roaming.

Simon Ostrovsky was lucky not to be killed by the gangsters that captured him.
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AT_Stalky

Rep: 27.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:38 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Dima wrote (View Post):
Sorry, at sea so can't post much due to bad connection


You probably meant FSB…
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sieterayos

Rep: 13.4


PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:08 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

dj wrote (View Post):
Ukrainian-American Simon Ostrovsky was just released by pro-Russian factions.  He said Ukrainian town thugs with machetes, shotguns, AK-47's had a bounty on him to capture.  They blindfolded him, moved to cellar, beaten for 10 minutes, and threatened that they would kill him.  Ostrovsky exposed how he found Russian Cossack soldier in Ukraine.  In Crimea he said troops were professional Russian  army forces with Russian license plates on trucks.  East Ukraine is lawless with no professional military organization...lots of armed gangsters roaming.

Simon Ostrovsky was lucky not to be killed by the gangsters that captured him.


Oh! Oh! Isn't it just appalling? It must be stopped! Look, I'm sure these charming young girls and boys with traditional values will stop them!

http://rt.com/news/155364-ukraine-nazi-division-march/

"The noble acts of courage performed by liberators, rescuers, and the Righteous Among Nations remind us that we are never powerless," Obama said. "In our lives, we always have choices. In our time, this means choosing to confront bigotry and hatred in all of its forms, especially anti-Semitism."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/theoval/2014/01/27/obama-holocaust-remembrance-day/4943077/
 
And here are your leaders, including Obama's secretary of state, exercising their "choices."

https://www.kyivpost.com/content/politics/svoboda-party-leader-calls-for-tough-penalties-to-stop-corruption-342876.html
 
http://www.channel4.com/news/ukraine-mccain-far-right-svoboda-anti-semitic-protests
 
While dj was always quick to defend US coalition forces in their sociocidal criminal thuggery in Iraq, when people take up arms to defend themselves against fascism, they are "gangsters."

This didn't even make him blush

dj wrote (View Post):
 If some jihadi gangster gets bombed by drone then GOOD!  I'll drop the bomb myself.

Just fyi - not everybody in America listens to Fox News or is right-wing nut.
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:07 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):
Dima wrote (View Post):
Sorry, at sea so can't post much due to bad connection

You probably meant FSB…

Yeah the Icelandic branch of FSB Smile.

Russia is under sanctions -

former German cancellor G.Schreder was celebrating his 70s anniversary in StPetersburg last night with Mr.Putin, Mr.Sechin, Mr.Miller and other Russian top officials who is now under sanctions Smile.
http://avmalgin.livejournal.com/4548927.html

Also an official delegation from Bundesland Mecklenburg-Vorpommern is in StPetersburg now negotiationing to expand business relations.
And seems Siemens and Exxon Mobil don't know about sanctions...
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AT_Stalky

Rep: 27.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:52 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

German are hooked on Russian gas…  Addicts knows to have good relations with there dealers.
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:09 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):
German are hooked on Russian gas…  Addicts knows to have good relations with there dealers.

and Americans are hooked on extra profits - 2 hours before 3rd wave of sanctions Exxon Mobil was approved to do oil mining with Rosneft which is under sanctions along with its president Mr.Sechin Smile
same for Siemens, Shell and other free World companies Smile
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AT_Stalky

Rep: 27.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:37 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Smile
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sieterayos

Rep: 13.4


PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101211042824AAU2lFf


 ...here are a few that contributed up to and including 1945

SKF of Philadelphia

Standard Oil refuelling U Boats caught by the US coast Guard in 1943

IG Farben Owned By standard oil which was owned By prescott Bush and the Rockerfellers

Du Pont

IBM

ITT owned 51% of Fokker Wolf up to 1945

Coco Cola they developed Fanta in Germany

Ford Opel in Germany owned and controlled fully by ford

Chrysler

Westrick,

Texaco

Standard Gas & Electric

The International Harvester Company

Herman Metz, a director of the Bank of Manhattan, controlled by the Warburgs.

the Rockefeller Chase Bank remained Open in Paris up to 1944 doing Business with the Nazis

Moreover, American assistance to Nazi war efforts extended into other areas.

The largest tank producers in Hitler's Germany were General Motors (controlled by the J.P. Morgan firm),Opel a wholly owned subsidiary of Ford built his Trucks up to and including 1945

the Ford A. G. subsidiary of the Ford Motor Company of Detroit. The Nazis granted tax-exempt status to Opel in 1936, to enable General Motors to expand its production facilities.

General Motors obligingly reinvested the resulting profits into German industry.

Henry Ford was decorated by the Nazis for his services to Nazism. with the "Grand cross of the German Eagle" which was never handed Back

Alcoa and Dow Chemical worked closely with Nazi industry with numerous transfers of their domestic U.S. technology. Bendix Aviation, in which the J.P. Morgan-controlled General Motors firm had a major stock interest, supplied Siemens & Halske A. G. in Germany with data on automatic pilots and aircraft instruments. As late as 1940, in the "unofficial war," Bendix Aviation supplied complete technical data to Robert Bosch for aircraft and diesel engine starters and received royalty payments in return.

all this is proven facts in any document when you reaserch trading with the Enemy WW2

but here a couple of Links that have been around since about since 1939
Source:
http://www.reformation.org/wall-st-hitle...

http://www.american-buddha.com/hig.tradi...

http://www.threeworldwars.com/world-war-...

http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2...

http://www.american-buddha.com/hig.tradi...

EDIT: The source links above are bad, but I know some of the above is true, and suspect most.

Trading with the "enemy" didn't stop the war.
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AT_Stalky

Rep: 27.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Hi Siet

sieterayos wrote (View Post):
Trading with the "enemy" didn't stop the war.


I think we meant that the sanctions are just words, as the business as well as relations continues. And that Germany can’t agree on trade sanctions vs Russia as they are hooked on Russian gas pipes. If Russia gets irritated, they may get “technical” problems with there pipes.. ..or bluntly make there own sanctions on gas bound for EU. Then we better hope for global warming, or it will be v cold winters..

/Mats
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sieterayos

Rep: 13.4


PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):
Hi Siet

sieterayos wrote (View Post):
Trading with the "enemy" didn't stop the war.


I think we meant that the sanctions are just words, as the business as well as relations continues. And that Germany can’t agree on trade sanctions vs Russia as they are hooked on Russian gas pipes. If Russia gets irritated, they may get “technical” problems with there pipes.. ..or bluntly make there own sanctions on gas bound for EU. Then we better hope for global warming, or it will be v cold winters..

/Mats
Not sure it will work like that at all. US want Russia to do its bidding so whatever it does, it will lose.

US is threatening to replace Russian supplies and cut them out. Not sure if they can, but it's a lot of revenue for US business if they do, and a crippling loss of revenue for Russia. Alternately, if Russia successfully starves Europe of energy, that's "economic/energy blackmail" and another pretext for war.

Sanctions are not just words, don't be fooled. The US is out to destroy the RF. It will ratchet up pressure until Russia obeys its will or is weak enough to attack and dismember.
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dgfred

Rep: 46.8


PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Yeah... the US is going to attack and dismember the Russian Federation.

The US may not want Russia to be a mega-powerful bully on the block... but a solid Russia makes for a much better world order IMO.


Sports Freak/ CC Commander/ Panzerblitz Commander
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:08 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Probably not many knows here but the RF has officially applied to be a member of NATO at least 2 times last one in 1999.
Both time was refused as without Russia as the enemy noone needs NATO.
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:13 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

There will be NO WW3. Exclamation   Arrow


Link
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dj

Rep: 123.9
votes: 7


PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:03 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

dgfred wrote (View Post):
Yeah... the US is going to attack and dismember the Russian Federation.

The US may not want Russia to be a mega-powerful bully on the block... but a solid Russia makes for a much better world order IMO.


McCain and his pals just get upset when their old rival Russia gets the big arms deals with other nations. It's all about the $$$.  That's why the sanctions were not that serious and Exxon Mobil and the other Big $ players are still ready to do business with Putin.  No doubt that if Russia imploded (again) it would wreak havoc on the world.  Now if Putin makes mistake it could be the end of his own new imperial Russia.  He so far has been brilliant in averting war in Syria to keep his arms deal intact and seized Crimea without much resistance.

@ Siet and your clone FMJ - don't put words in my mouth...I never said I endorse endless war on terror.  I never said I supported the invasion of Iraq.  Get over your petty hatred of US and blaming America for all of the world issues.  Don't try to say that it's okay to torture Ukrainian journalist because America tortured some people in Iraq.  Dick Cheney had his own agenda which I never endorsed, nor does even McCain or others in his own party.  Iraq was fraud but we're not talking about Iraq or what American companies did business with Germany in the 30's.  Just because war hawk Bill Crystal wants to lobby for the war profiteers doesn't mean that all Americans or Obama endorse that view.  What war has Obama started?  Please enlighten me on your self-invented facts.
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:24 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

There will be NO WW3. Exclamation   Arrow


Link
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