There won't be an "impartial" investigation. The crash site has already been tampered with. Look at the map of where this crash occurred. It's deep in rebel-held territory, and close to the Russian border. But it doesn't matter anyways, various countries have already confirmed what anyone with a smidgin of sense knew right from the start: Russia and it's little rebels in Ukraine are culpable.
Hopefully this means sanctions for Russia, and drastically less imports of their gas to the EU. The west should not be dealing with a one-party regime led by a dictator.
1. NATO secret operation shoots down civilian aircraft to frame Russia.
2. Rebels captured Ukrainian anti-aircraft hardware and used it to take down a civilian aircraft by accident.
3. Ukrainian regular forces shoot down civilian aircraft.
...and finally the least likely story run in Russian but the most plausible...
4. Russian lent equipment to rebels used to down civilian aircraft.
Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:09 am Post subject: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17
I flew into Kiev on Friday and then to Odessa. Flights where delayed a few hours but it was not bad.
From the airports point of view, you would never know there was a conflict in the other part of the country except
we did run into a few of these driving out of Odessa. (Port city?)
They where sandbagged and you had to stop. No one came to the car, you just stopped and drove on.
How is this being spun in Russia news...
1. NATO secret operation shoots down civilian aircraft to frame Russia.
2. Rebels captured Ukrainian anti-aircraft hardware and used it to take down a civilian aircraft by accident.
3. Ukrainian regular forces shoot down civilian aircraft.
...and finally the least likely story run in Russian but the most plausible...
4. Russian lent equipment to rebels used to down civilian aircraft.
that's of course not correct...
the main versions basing on damage character are (https://www.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/sets/72157645790319631/):
1. Air-to-Air missile (http://aviaforum.ru/showpost.php?p=1578720&postcount=899; http://politikus.ru/events/24720-strasti-po-boingu-pervye-priznaki-rakety-vozduh-vozduh-sbival-ne-buk-m1.html).
2. Bomb aboard.
3. Ukraine's Buk's very old missile as new missiles do different type of damage.
Some guys have spoted another lie from Ukraine showing their own Buk on trailer (#312) as supplied by Russia. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtAh0dKIUAAx4NN.jpg
The first radio intercept released by Ukraine on July 17th (with date of July 16th btw) appeared to be fraud as well.
And some unofficial info from USA http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/ What I’ve been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms.
The source said CIA analysts were still not ruling out the possibility that the troops were actually eastern Ukrainian rebels in similar uniforms but the initial assessment was that the troops were Ukrainian soldiers. There also was the suggestion that the soldiers involved were undisciplined and possibly drunk, since the imagery showed what looked like beer bottles scattered around the site, the source said.
If you think Dima is an idiot for the absolutely rubbish post above, don't be quick to judge. You would be spewing this crap too if your schoolbooks were censored by Stalin himself. And it's typical Russian nature to always blame the west, and Russians have a penchant for stories that any sensible person would consider complete lunacy.
This kind of "news" is what Russian media tells their citizens and most of them quite willingly believe it all--actually one major Russian newspaper didn't even bother to report on the crash the next day. Russian media (print, TV, internet) is entirely state-controlled. Have no illusions, Russia hasn't changed much from their "glorious" Soviet days--plenty of Russian politicians still consider the communist times the "best of times". Instead of communism, Russia's politics are now resemble national socialism. It's one major party is extremely nationalist, and their only competition is from the communists and a extreme right-wing, hardcore nationalist, and blatantly imperialistic party.
Russia shouldn't be dealt with until they are fully democratic and can attest that at least 50% of their population aren't gullible idiots. The disrespect shown to the victims of this crash is reason alone to not deal with them, Europe has to get their gas from somewhere else.
Ethnic Russians who reside in Ukraine and want to battle with the Ukrainian army will eventually lose, and Ukraine will be better off once the war is won. Ukrainian independence is a battle that Ukrainians have been fighting for a long time, and the events of the last eight months have set things in motion that even comrade Putin can't control. Cheers to future NATO and EU member Ukraine
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:07 am Post subject: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17
Well-stated Troger. Soviet and Russian media has long history of this. Putin has been in power since 1999, an eternity in comparison to Western standard for years in office. That was only just a few short years since collapse of USSR.
Still 100 bodies unaccounted for. The Anarchy in the rebel held territory is apparent. Lots of thugs walking around in machine guns, drunk, looting the crash site. I am amazed they were even able to retrieve the black boxes.
"..Russia's politics are now resemble national socialism. It's one major party is extremely nationalist, and their only competition is from the communists and a extreme right-wing, hardcore nationalist, and blatantly imperialistic party."
Sounds a lot like American politics currently as well. We are been pulled to the right by hardcore imperialistic party that is always desperate to start more wars. Then the left is so out of touch with reality focusing on serving their special interest factions...there is no real center any more that governs. We have become a Police-State bordering on fascism...with a whopping 25% of the world prisoner population. Russia seems to be heading in that direction too.
Last edited by dj on Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:50 am; edited 1 time in total
But judging by a level of knowledge of the White House press secretary I bet the majority of the US population would be satisfied to see something like this as a prove for the Russian fault:
Quote:
The disrespect shown to the victims of this crash is reason alone to not deal with them, Europe has to get their gas from somewhere else.
the Dutch are in charge for investigation and beeing Russia trade partner No2 in a volume and not keen to leak the US ass we could hope for adequate conclusions.
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:55 am Post subject: Re: Malasian Airlines MH17
Russian are to be happy, they only have to deal with the American right wing- religious- war- mongering idiots.
Americans should be happy too, they only have to deal with the cultural- and tecnologically- always five step behind, agressive -expanding-neo-empire-nationalistic Russians.
But we the Europeans, have to deal with both.
Last edited by AT_Stalky on Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
Russian are to be happy, they only have to deal with the American right wing- religious- war- mongering idiots.
Americans should to be happy too, they only have to deal with the cultural- and tecnologically- always five step behind, agressive -expanding-neo-empire-nationalistic Russians.
But we the Europeans, have to deal with both.
well can argue about culture and we are definately not 5-steps behind technologically, more likely 2-steps in average .
We should not really count the companies in natural Resources as they are just considerd "luck", so that make 6 Russian brands amongst world top 500 brands.
Rank; Company; type
106 Sper bank
316 Magnit
406 MTS
423 Beeline
457 VTB bank
470 mega
129 gaz (Natural Resources)
306 Lukoil (Natural Resources)
443 Rosnef (Natural Resources)
Compare that to pathetic little Sweden.. Sweden has 9 mil people, while Russia has 150+ mil people…
Here are the 7 Swede's on the world top 500 brands:
Rank; Company; type
53 IKEA
104 HM
164 Ericson
166 Nordea
414 Volvo
465 Skanska
473 SHB
Take a look at that list, I only went through it in a haste.
Perhaps I made some serious serious mistakes… Misstakes that suggests Russia to be the tec/cult world leader, or at least score unity at a per capita ranking… LOL
Dima, please, help me make a list of the top 500 World artists. (top Selling albums)..
Or about pure tec indicators like; patents granted per capita... Or academic pub per capita...
Ohh, crap i forgot, Russian Vodka is a world success. I hold Smirnoff as one of the greatest vodka of this planet.
Good that you haven't changed for these 10+ years I know you through CSO/CCS - still the same little brainwashed hater .
Hey!!! Dude, I was trying to defend you! Other people who see your post might think you are a crazy person, but I know that you can't help it, you're just a Russian being a Russian.
Russian are to be happy, they only have to deal with the American right wing- religious- war- mongering idiots.
Americans should be happy too, they only have to deal with the cultural- and tecnologically- always five step behind, agressive -expanding-neo-empire-nationalistic Russians.
But we the Europeans, have to deal with both.
It's true, American society is around 30% of the type you mentioned above, and they are as bad as a Kremlin propagandist--but they are not representative of the entire U.S. population. The vast majority of Russian society is like Dima (a normal guy of seemingly normal intelligence) who are completely willing to believe all the lies their government tells them. But if we grew up in a oppressed society where every single thing was censored and twisted, we'd be the same way.
I'd disagree with you that Europe doesn't have to deal with Russia. They absolutely do have to deal with Russia, and are the only ones that can make a meaningful impact--and this plane crash should serve as a call to action. Russia's economy is a one trick pony, their main industry is gas and the main importer of that gas is Europe. Russia, either directly or indirectly, just caused a plane load of Dutch people (and others) to die a horrible death. You tell me how a Dutch politician (or any EU politician) with any conscious can continue the import of Russian gas (which only serves to fund a corrupt Russian society)?
It's the U.S. that doesn't have to deal with them, and yet the Obama administration has been quicker to condemn and respond to Russian aggression than any European nation.
You tell me how a Dutch politician (or any EU politician) with any conscious can continue the import of Russian gas (which only serves to fund a corrupt Russian society)? It's the U.S. that doesn't have to deal with them, and yet the Obama administration has been quicker to condemn and respond to Russian aggression than any European nation.
I’m Swede, part Finland.
We have dealt with Russia for 400 years or more, long before America was a nation.
As soon as we have a problem, we just have to scratch the surface at it and there is a little Russian tsar popping out, whit, red or brown. No matter color they are the same.
As a nation, we would not ever trust Russia, plugging in to Russian gas was just a laugh here… And we rolled our eyes when Germans et al went for that idea.
Hahah!
Mate, here is a list of the world top 500 company brands. Why isn’t there a single Russian brand amongst the world top 100…?
http://brandirectory.com/league_tables/table/global-500-2014
We should not really count the companies in natural Resources as they are just considerd "luck", so that make 6 Russian brands amongst world top 500 brands.
Rank; Company; type
106 Sper bank
316 Magnit
406 MTS
423 Beeline
457 VTB bank
470 mega
129 gaz (Natural Resources)
306 Lukoil (Natural Resources)
443 Rosnef (Natural Resources)
I think that's a pretty good result as 23 years ago there was not any of the Russian company in that list, don't you think? ;)
Quote:
Ohh, crap i forgot, Russian Vodka is a world success. I hold Smirnoff as one of the greatest vodka of this planet.
Smirnoff is not a Russian vodka and it sux actually
I think that's a pretty good result as 23 years ago there was not any of the Russian company in that list, don't you think?
No, I dont Think that.
Dima mate. I love you like a brother. But I have issues with Russia under Putin. And so ought you have too.
You think Russia has become better or something since Soviet era? You’re impressed by the performance of Russia under Putin?
So Russia now have 6 companies of the World top 500… And that’s impressive according to you? Of a nation of 150+ mil? Seriously?
Lets look at other indicators of national performance. Average life expectancy is a grate indicator of a socio/economic performance. It gives a comprehensive unbiased indicator of social and economical development.
I’m using WHO data of life expectancy in the year 1990 and 2012:
In 1990 Russia had an average life expectancy of 69 years.
In 2012 Russia had an average life expectancy of 69 years.
Wow, the absolute difference in Russian life expectancy has not changed at all over a 22 year period from the soviet era in 1990, to Putins Russia in 2012. Is that grate performance according to you? ZERO increase, is that grate preformance???
Lets look at other countries, and see how they developed:
In 1990 China had an average life expectancy of 69 years.
In 2012 China had an average life expectancy of 75 years.
So, China has a better statistics here. They increased the life expectancy from 69 years 1990 to 75 years in 2012. That’s an increase in 6 years, compared to Russias 0 [zero] years.
Lets look at other countries, and see how they developed:
In 1990 Ecuador had an average life expectancy of 69 years.
In 2012 Ecuador had an average life expectancy of 75 years.
So, Ecuador has better statistics than Putins Russia in the same period. Hm what does that suggest?
Lets look at other countries, and see how they developed:
In 1990 Indonesia had an average life expectancy of 62 years.
In 2012 Indonesia had an average life expectancy of 71 years.
Hm, so Indonesia has had some good development, starting from low 3-rd world figures, and now beats Russia with 2 years. What does that tell you Dima?
Lets be very fair here. Lets look at the former Soviet States and Soviet stateliest and see how they developed compared to Russia, in the same period 1990 and 2012 figures.. This ought to give a good indicator of performance as all the sates was soviet controlled or communist satellites in 1990. Thus they started from similar conditions in 1990, this ought to give an very fair good indicator of preformance.
A reminder of Russian development in life expectancy from 1990 to 2012:
In 1990 Russia had an average life expectancy of 69 years.
In 2012 Russia had an average life expectancy of 69 years.
This is easy to remember, Putins Russia had ZERO [0] increase in life expectancy in the 22 years from 1990 to 2012.
Lets look at the former soviet state Kyrgyzstan, and see how they developed from 1990 to 2012:
In 1990 Kyrgyzstan (under Soviet/Russian domination) had an average life expectancy of 66 years.
In 2012 Kyrgyzstan had a average life expectancy of 69 years.
So, since Kyrgyzstan was made independent from Soviet/Russia its life expectancy has increased, while at the same time Putins Russia life expectancy has not increased. Is Putin more than a nationalistic wind-bag?
Lets look at other countries in the former Soviet/Russian empire, and see how they developed:
In 1990 Uzbecistan (under Soviet/Russian era) had an average life expectancy of 67 years.
In 2012 the free Uzbecistan had a average life expectancy of 69 years.
Hm, LOL; the powerhouse of Uzbecistan has now the same life expectancy as Putin-Russia…
Lets look at other countries in the former Soviet/Russian empire, and see how they developed:
In 1990 Latvia (under Soviet/Russian era) had a average life expectancy of 69 years.
In 2012 the free Lativia had a average life expectancy of 79 years.
Wow, since Latvia was made independent from Russia in 1990 up to 2012 its life expectancy has increased with 10 years… How come Dima? Why has Putins Russia failed so badly in an comparison?
Lets look at another soviet satellite like Poland, and see how they developed in the same period:
In 1990 Poland (as a soviet/russian communist satellite) had an life expectancy of 71 years.
In 2012 the free Poland had a average life expectancy of 77 years.
WTF Dima, while your grate Putin - Russia has developed so much since the fall of Soviet (according to you), Russia has failed in increasing the life expectancy, other soviet- nations and satellite nation has not failed. Is Putin really that grate? Poland has increased the Life expect of 6 years, thus outpreformes Putins-Russia.
Oh, Lets look at another soviet “satellite” like Cuba, who still believe in communism, and see how they developed in the same period:
In 1990 Cuba had an life expectancy of 74 years.
In 2012 Cuba had a average life expectancy of 79 years.
WTF Dima, the grate Putin Russia is outperformed by the communist Castro Cuba.…
In 2013 Russia was ranked on place 124 of 194 countries in Life expectancy. Russia was outperformed by nations like: Moldavia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Morocco, Philippines, Fiji, Egypt, Algeria, Iran, Albania!!!, Lebanon!!!, Armenia, Georgia, Jordan, Sri Lanka, Syria, Vietnam, … etc etc,…. Russia was ranked 124…. Russia was outperformed by 3 rd world countries en masse. Grate Putin-Russia???
Do I need to go on?
The stats is clear, Putins Russia is shit. The development under his rule is outperformed by basically all nations on the planet.
Even though Putins-Russia has won the lottery ticket and found Gas, it still can’t get things going. Putin need to be replaced.
Last edited by AT_Stalky on Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
As you know I've never voted for Putin neither his pet party so....
Quote:
You think Russia has become better or something since Soviet era? You’re impressed by the performance of Russia under Putin?
So Russia now have 6 companies of the World top 500… And that’s impressive according to you? Of a nation of 150+ mil? Seriously?
Yes, we have never lived so good in Russia as we do now - that's a 146% truth.
No, that's not because of Putin but because of high natural resources prices, so no matter who would be a president it would be more or less the same.
Yes, I think it's good that after 23 years we already have 6 companies in the World top 100 as in 1991 Russia was deserted like after the big WAR with factories not working, salaries not paid and empty stocks in stores. And that's because the Soviet industry was not concentrated in the RFSR but split among all 15 Sovet republics and when they became independent most of the connections were lost or interrupted. So you can easily minus 8-10 years (to 1999-2001) and that's when you'll be able to see those companies (among Top 500) started to really work.
Quote:
I’m using WHO data of life expectancy in the year 1990 and 2012:
In 1990 Russia had an average life expectancy of 69 years.
In 2012 Russia had an average life expectancy of 69 years.
Wow, the absolute difference in Russian life expectancy has not changed at all over a 22 year period from the soviet era in 1990, to Putins Russia in 2012. Is that grate performance according to you? ZERO increase, is that grate preformance???
When you go berserk you are unstoppable .
But what you failed to see is life expectance between these years. And if you check them, you will see that the Russian population was decreasing quite fast till like mid 2000s due to low life level and then started to go back to 1990 level and now we are ahead of it.
Quote:
The stats is clear, Putins Russia is shit. The development under his rule is outperformed by basically all nations on the planet.
Even though Putins-Russia has won the lottery ticket and found Gas, it still can’t get things going. Putin need to be replaced.
funny thing is that I travel at least 2 times a year in the USA and at least 2 times a month to the European contries and I can really compare. But can you?
that doesn't mean I don't agree about Putin.
Na, Poland has even lower birth rates development from 1990 to 2012 than Russia. Latvia has even worse development in birth rates compared to Russia.. Cuba has almost the same birth rate developement as Russia. China has worse birth rate changes compared to Russia.. So, no you cant explain Putin Russias poor life expectancy with birth rate changes.
Indonesias figures LOL, would you whant there changes in birth rates to...? Even though, they faired so much better than russia in Life expectancy...
Here are the birth-rate figures for a sample of countries mentioned before, 1990 to 2012 figures..
So, no you cant explain Putin Russias poor life expectancy with birth rate changes.
Maybe you should stop now and study subject?
http://www.rferl.org/content/life-expectancy-cis-report/24946030.html Male life expectancy in Russia fell from 63 years in 1990 to 58 in 2000, and rose again to 62 years in 2009. Female life expectancy in Russia has remained fairly steady. It was 74 years in 1990, dipped to 72 in 2000, and rose back to 74 years in 2009.
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