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Do incapacitations count as a soldier's kills?

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JFFulcrum

Rep: 70


PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:42 am Post subject: Cover-less buildings Reply with quote

Is that true that buildings is no longer provide sufficient cover for infantry, in oppose of classic CCs? During my first steps in Caen I`m quickly realize, that infantry in buildings is easily got killed out by mortar fire (even from 2cm mortars) and by machine guns. Infantry in trenches, instead, was virtually immortal from such threats. Generally, will be better to entrench infantry in fiends instead of placing into buildings in defensive missions?
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Pete

Rep: 112.3
votes: 12


PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:08 am Post subject: Re: Cover-less buildings Reply with quote

In my experience cover in buildings was reduced significantly compared to previous releases.


Dulce Bellum Inexpertis
(War is delightful to those who have no experience of it.)
Our facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/buckandpete/
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ScnelleMeyer

Rep: 160
votes: 13


PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: Cover-less buildings Reply with quote

From CC5 to GtC/PITF the level 2 Stone wall protection was adjusted like this :

Protection values was lowered from 40mm - 9mm
Top protection (vs mortars) from 15mm - 5mm
HE effect modifier (higher the number the more the effect is reduced) from 10 - 2 (2 is "average effect")
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mick_xe5

Rep: 19.4
votes: 5


PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: Cover-less buildings Reply with quote

Changing only the L2 stone wall values this way sounds like a dev experiment that escaped into the release versions.

Another issue with bldg protection is some all to frequent miscoding of bldgs where adjoining rooms are at different levels. In the example below, miscoding the adjoining wall as L1 leaves that end of the L2 section open and unprotected.

Without a consistent map coding style guide, post-Atomic CC maps have suffered from a hodgepodge of map coding interpretations.
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ScnelleMeyer

Rep: 160
votes: 13


PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: Cover-less buildings Reply with quote

mick_xe5 wrote (View Post):
Changing only the L2 stone wall values this way sounds like a dev experiment that escaped into the release versions.


I am sorry to say this is the same across many elements from LSA onwards. -  The level 2 stone wall data was just a single example.
The game used to have coding in the .exe that increased HE effect inside buildings as standard. I wonder if this part of the code was changed or taken into account when they revised the cover/Weapon values for LSA? - I kind of doubt it was..

Edit: From this post at Matrix forums regarding changes of cover values in later releases: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2595488

"Prior to LSA, base accuracy was generally quite high and almost every shot any soldier took was a hit of some sort. This was compensated for by jacking up the terrain protection values so that the terrain would protect the target from most hits unless the accuracy of the hit was high (what is called 'critical' or 'good' in the notes above).

The main change in LSA (and on into future versions) is that aiming is now the main factor in accuracy. Troops that are suppressed (or worse) will tend not to aim (or lose their aim if they come under fire) resulting in low chance to hit beyond point blank range. This means that shots actually miss now, and terrain protection values can be dialed back to realistic levels since it no longer has to compensate for unrealistic accuracy ratings.

Steve "

I think the change sounds good in theory but there are some issues - like with buildings generally not providing enough cover for small arms and mortars.
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JFFulcrum

Rep: 70


PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: Cover-less buildings Reply with quote

ScnelleMeyer
Thank you for explanation. So now we have giirly soldiers accompanied with houses of cards.
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ScnelleMeyer

Rep: 160
votes: 13


PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: Cover-less buildings Reply with quote

JFFulcrum wrote (View Post):
ScnelleMeyer
Thank you for explanation. So now we have giirly soldiers accompanied with houses of cards.


Lol yeah girly soldiers are there - But house of cards can be adjusted to concrete bunker if one so wish.

I already started on a mini-mod to correct the stats to somehing that rhymes more with what I think is real life performance of different buildings. - Hint: The values for buildings so far turns out to be very similar to TLD and older releases;)
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ScnelleMeyer

Rep: 160
votes: 13


PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:54 pm Post subject: Re: Cover-less buildings Reply with quote

Here is the minimod to increase cover of buildings. Its mostly protection values from The Longest day that has been implemented.
Not tested a great deal, but mortars will now have a much harder time slaughtering infantry in buildings - They will however suppress effectively.

I also added a vehicle mod to make all vehicles more agile and less likely to zig-zag. - there are small changes in the elements to support this.

Feedback welcome!

Install directions:
Put the folder into your GtC directory.
You might have to update the shortcut target to your install directory.
Start the mod via the shortcut.
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Pete

Rep: 112.3
votes: 12


PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: Cover-less buildings Reply with quote

ScnelleMeyer wrote (View Post):
Here is the minimod to increase cover of buildings. Its mostly protection values from The Longest day that has been implemented.
Not tested a great deal, but mortars will now have a much harder time slaughtering infantry in buildings - They will however suppress effectively.

I also added a vehicle mod to make all vehicles more agile and less likely to zig-zag. - there are small changes in the elements to support this.

Feedback welcome!

Install directions:
Put the folder into your GtC directory.
You might have to update the shortcut target to your install directory.
Start the mod via the shortcut.


Thanks SchnelleMeyer, I will try these.


Dulce Bellum Inexpertis
(War is delightful to those who have no experience of it.)
Our facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/buckandpete/
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michazech

Rep: 9.7


PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:42 pm Post subject: Re: Cover-less buildings Reply with quote

Thank you Scnelle Meyer
"I also added a vehicle mod to make all vehicles more agile and less likely to zig-zag."

!Best mod ever!

Now the vehicles have in clear terrain at last the same speed as infantry (without fatigue)
Without this changes much of the light vehicles was more or less useless

Thank you very much      (o,o; )
                                       ""
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ScnelleMeyer

Rep: 160
votes: 13


PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: Cover-less buildings Reply with quote

Thanks a lot for the feedback michazech!  - Glad you like the changes.

I play with this mod myself as well and its now unthinkable to go back to original values for me.
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michazech

Rep: 9.7


PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:28 pm Post subject: Re: Cover-less buildings Reply with quote

That´s right,

In one of my first tryouts i simply outflanked a Tigertank with a Churchill (...just to get killed in front of him by a panzerfaust-team)
Maybe the turret of the Tigertank was to slow for adjusting at target.


Far from infantry-support-missions tanks now be able to break through enemy lines and maneuver in the open.

It´s look like the germans now have the "technical" capabilities for blitzkrieg-counterstrike-tactics.

The original vehicle-"behaviour" is mysterious.
Don´t know why a strategy-game that puts the emphasis on REAL chose a lame-duck-value for vehicles
although it shouldn't be too difficult for developers to give some speed options or such things, maybe in the mission-settings
Is it up to the limeted map size?

What ever

Towed guns and monted infantry for GTC is a good innovation.
I´m sure, with your speed-mod the campaigns and battles become more flexible.

A great Mod
A challenge for all my previous CC-tactics

Best regards

(o,o~)
  ""
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