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DELETED

Rep: 15.1
votes: 1


PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:51 pm Post subject: Poland 44 Reply with quote

An interesting new take on the Warsaw uprising - https://www.rt.com/news/478443-poland-warsaw-liberation-myths/
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dj

Rep: 143.6
votes: 8


PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: Poland 44 Reply with quote

I would say the article has a lot of half truths.  To try to pretend Red Army were the saviors of Warsaw posing in friendly photos is disingenuous.   Stalin sat back and took his sweet time re-grouping, take a nice long break and let them try to wear down the Germans.  Let's not sugarcoat he did not care about the Poles much.  Don't forget the inconvenient truth they collaborated with the Germans to help themselves to invasion of Poland (and seized the Baltic states).
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DELETED

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:58 am Post subject: Re: Poland 44 Reply with quote

dj wrote (View Post):
I would say the article has a lot of half truths.  To try to pretend Red Army were the saviors of Warsaw posing in friendly photos is disingenuous.   Stalin sat back and took his sweet time re-grouping, take a nice long break and let them try to wear down the Germans.  Let's not sugarcoat he did not care about the Poles much.  Don't forget the inconvenient truth they collaborated with the Germans to help themselves to invasion of Poland (and seized the Baltic states).


I did read where the Polish Resistance decided to rise up before the Soviets arrived, they thought they could do the job first without Soviet help. Therefore laying claiming to Warsaw as a free city in the name of the exile Polish Govt in Britain. Legitimizing their claim as non Soviet. Also if you look at the territory captured by the Soviets leading up to Warsaw. It is most likely, a factor for the Soviets running out of steam - supplies and reinforcements. That said, yes I to believe the Soviets were reluctant to help the Polish resistance. Many former Polish People's Army veterans interviews, thought the Red Army as liberators from the Axis forces and even civilians . Remembering how the Nazi's treated them - 6 million dead civilians. What came next never represented anything like the Nazi occupation.

I haven't seen anywhere that the USSR ever collaborated with Nazi Germany ? Russia did have a Non Aggression pact with Germany. Many countries prior to WW2 had those. Russia did invade eastern Poland in 1939 - secret additional protocol" of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact . It was simply for their own interests - placing more distance between Berlin and Moscow - trading space for time. They knew the very open secret that Germany wanted Eastern Europe - Lebensraum.

Poland had been an aggressor nation as we call it today prior to WW2. An extract - Within the region originally demanded from Czechoslovakia by Nazi Germany in 1938 was an important railway junction city of Bohumin. The Poles regarded the city as of crucial importance to the area and to Polish interests. On 28 September, Benes composed a note to the Polish administration offering to reopen the debate surrounding the territorial demarcation in T?šínsko in the interest of mutual relations, but he delayed in sending it in hopes of good news from London and Paris, which failed to come. Benes then turned to the Soviet leadership in Moscow, which had begun a partial mobilization in eastern Belarus and the Ukrainian SSR and threatened Poland with the dissolution of the Soviet-Polish non-aggression pact.[4]

At noon on 30 September, Poland gave an ultimatum to the Czechoslovak government. It demanded the immediate evacuation of Czechoslovak troops and police and gave Prague time until noon the following day. At 11:45 a.m. on 1 October the Czechoslovak foreign ministry called the Polish ambassador in Prague and told him that Poland could have what it wanted. The Polish Army, commanded by General W?adys?aw Bortnowski, annexed an area of 801.5 km² with a population of 227,399 people.

The Germans were delighted with this outcome. They were happy to give up a provincial rail centre to Poland; it was a small sacrifice indeed. It spread the blame of the partition of Czechoslovakia, made Poland an accomplice in the process and confused the issue as well as political expectations. Poland was accused of being an accomplice of Nazi Germany – a charge that Warsaw was hard put to deny.[5]
Territorial changes on the (Czecho)Slovak-Polish border between 1902–1945 (red parts – to Austrian Galicia/Poland; green parts – to Czechoslovakia/Slovakia).

Poland occupied some northern parts of Slovakia and received from Czechoslovakia Zaolzie, territories around Sucha Hora and Hladovka, around Javorina, and in addition the territory around Lesnica in the Pieniny Mountains, a small territory around Skalite and some other very small border regions (they officially received the territories on 1 November 1938.

The Baltic States unfortunately were another land corridor into the Soviet Russia as was Finland. Pre WW2 this was a common practice - Napoleonic War etc. I don't believe the Soviets ever to be allied or collaborated with Nazi Germany. No more than say the Allies pre WW2 supplying Germany and Japan raw resources, the annexing of Czechoslovakia to Germany by the allies and Poland or even been involve in the Inbetween Wars against Soviet Russia post WW1.

Collaborated - no. Colluded - yes.
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jakebullet70

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votes: 1


PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:31 am Post subject: Re: Poland 44 Reply with quote

Some of your quotes are coming from the Wikipedia page.
That page was last edited on 29 December 2019, less than 1 month ago. By who? I have an idea.

Russia is pushing blame on the Poles for STARTING WW2.  

https://apnews.com/43af9cc8c7a8478fb24295179aae77ee/poles-furious-after-russia-blames-them-starting-wwii
https://www.timesofisrael.com/poles-furious-after-russia-blames-them-for-starting-wwii/
https://notesfrompoland.com/2019/12/23/putin-blames-poland-for-ww2-and-says-soviet-occupation-saved-lives/
https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/polish-pm-accuses-putin-lying-outbreak-wwii-67970438
 
Google:  'Russia is pushing blame on the Poles for WW2'

And let's never forget the Katyn massacre.

Most everything from RT news is just Russian state propaganda.
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jakebullet70

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:33 am Post subject: Re: Poland 44 Reply with quote

HasaniSabbah wrote (View Post):
An interesting new take on the Warsaw uprising - https://www.rt.com/news/478443-poland-warsaw-liberation-myths/  


Not a new take. Russian propaganda.
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DELETED

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:34 am Post subject: Re: Poland 44 Reply with quote

Google:  'Russia is pushing blame on the Poles for WW2'

And let's never forget the Katyn massacre.

Most everything from RT news is just Russian state propaganda.[/quote]

Look up the history you will find that what is said regards the conflicts of all is correct. What did the Polish Politician say about the Jews of Poland to Hitler ? Or are these just lies / truths you don't like. Katyn massacre undoubtedly Soviet. You can't just pick what you like and dislike as history.
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JFFulcrum

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:39 am Post subject: Re: Poland 44 Reply with quote

Quote:
Russia is pushing blame on the Poles for STARTING WW2

That`s weird, because in history studying is well-established that WWII starts in East in 1937 as Japan invasion on mainland China. BTW, that was a direct consequence of Anti-Comintern pact of 1936 (with secret protocols...who said that was a Molotov-Ribbentrop pact uniqueness?), and Poland was about to join that pact, as do Italy, Spain, and even Hungary.

Quote:
Most everything from RT news is just Russian state propaganda.

Fancy, but some of links you provided have cites from Polish IPN (Instytut Pami?ci Narodowej). Search for about this 'institution'. We have Russian state propaganda after/against Polish state propaganda, quite honestly.

Quote:
And let's never forget the Katyn massacre.

Then remember the numerous Polish atrocities too.
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DELETED

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:08 pm Post subject: Re: Poland 44 Reply with quote

jake - Poland signed a non aggression pact with Germany in 1934. Britain and France also signed non aggression pacts with Germany. The Soviets did after most others to try to protect themselves.


Josef Lepski - Poland’s ambassador to Germany 1933 - 1939. Made the famous comment in 1938 following a meeting with Adolf Hitler regards the European Jewish problem. "I told him," wrote the Polish diplomat, "that if he finds such a solution we will erect him a beautiful monument in Warsaw."You might want to read about the Madagascar Plan. Where Poland, Germany and France were looking into sending European Jews to the Island of Madagascar in 1937. Now those things are collusion and non are collaborating. However the Western allies and Poland did contribute to the start of WW2 by allowing Germany to annex parts of countries and whole countries in some cases - Czechoslovakia, Luxembourg etc. Leaving countries feeling isolated like the Soviets who requested pacts with France and Britain only to be turned down by the likes of Chamberlain.
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