[platoon_michael]

Hello,

What would be the best way to get the A.I. to NOT deploy AT_Guns in the middle of the woods in WAR?

Is there something in the workbook that just needs editing like how people have done to get them placed in houses.
Or would one have to edit the size of the AT_Gun so that it was essentially to larger to be placed in the woods?
I.E. maybe adding a Gun Pit.

They are great weapons for the A.I. to use against Tanks but not when the A.I. places them so far back in the woods that they are virtually worthless.

[Pzt_Kanov]

You could try to make them NOT enter certain terrain. In elements file set column "vehicle move pushed" to 0 to elements normally found in woods so AT guns cannot be deployed there.

[AT_Stalky]

Kanovs idea might work. Though if the forrest floor is for example snowy field (??? i dont have WaR installed, so i dont know how the forest floor is coded??) it will not work without recode all maps with a specific element in the forest that is seperate from the other arias where deploy is to be ok in that element. Thats a Major work load...

Idea of having larger gun size may possible work, but is the forest so uniformed that it will block placement everywhere with a specific size? Second question, if the gun is to large, will it fit other more desireble placements or does the large size make other good deploy impossible or harder? ...

[pvt_Grunt]

The AI team placement uses the LOS file to decide which tile can see where. Maybe the AI thinks the gun can "see" further than it actually can. See Steve's latest post in the Pitf dev forum about LOS. After the game is started LOS is calculated for each unit to the aiming reticle. It's like the 2 LOS programs are not agreeing with each other.

[platoon_michael]

Looks to me like the answer is no.

Stalky is correct that there are other elements under the Tree's such as Snowy Field,which would require recoding.
That's not for me.

[Stwa]

[Stwa]

Actually, there is a lot of things you can do to make your AT gun experience more robust.  

Try locating a map set where there just aren't any forest or major built up areas (like Okeenawa).

Use AT guns on your larger maps. The map in the screenie is a 20x20. This way, OPFOR mortars aren't going to be drop dead accurate at the longer ranges. But your AT guns, WILL be drop dead accurate at the longer ranges, even when firing at infantry or crewed weapons.

Notice, one AT gun has causalties from the mortar barrage, but still blazes away with a 2 man crew.

They basically fire at anything that moves.  

JAP really knows how to use these guns properly (as the screenie shows).

I would direct your attention to the absense of GREEN trees on the map.  

As the mission designer, I was very clever, and created a JAP deployment zone on the high ground of the hill.    

And, once again, the guns were NOT re-deployed by the HP (moi).

Conclusion: Whether you are shooting at tanks or infanty, AT guns are one of the best weapon systems in the game, unless your map set really sucks.

[Stwa]

In my mission, the AT guns start blazing away right after you hit begin.

Then gun lower (South) on the map, has already fired 15 times, and is now starting to punish the stoopid Shermans. The tanks can't see the AT guns, mainly becuase their crews are encased in a very small steel enclosure with just a few slits for visibility.  

[Stwa]

In the modern game, there are no AT guns. But the closest thing may be an Humvee AT, one of my absoulte FAVORITE weapon systems.

Hint for NOOBS:   Drive your Humvee AT to the top of the hill.   (see screenie below)

Also, use maps with fewer trees, or maps where the trees are spread out alot  

For hard to get vehicles, use copters. I usually set up about a dozen or so strikes.

Note: A JAP 47mm AT gun (in the previous post screenies) starts with 35 rounds. You don't need that many copter strikes.  

[Stwa]

But if you have tried everything, and your AT guns just aren't making you puke, perhaps you should consider another game system altogether.  

Perhaps a game system, where HP guns or AI guns have no problems with trees whatsoever.

Or a game system where the rate of fire of the "guns" are even faster than any AT gun in any CC game.

I just happen to have  the perfect screenie for that, just laying around on my system.

As a general rule, less trees work best. Enjoy    

[platoon_michael]

Thanks for the input Stwa,

I'll redo/code all the Maps.

[platoon_michael]

Just kidding,
I've posted at the Matrix site but its just easier to remove them before battle.

Oh well

[AT_Stalky]

Stwa…

AT guns was/is not used like that. If you’re up vs. an able enemy with tanks/APC in its arsenal, no AT team would ever open fire vs infantry…
An AT gun is hidden until an armoured target appears.

The problem for the AT gun is the enemy responds after its used, the indirect fire.
So it basically holds fire, until really needed, there after it must regroupe really fast.
Experience showed that the gun was to slow to get out of danger once used.
Therefor the mounted AT was the way to go.
SP guns had a much higher survivability compared to the reg AT gun, for reason mentioned.

I suppose, you’re playing CCMT without a campaign, thus all games are single games without continuation. And you don’t have to think and take the consequences of a loss of such an important asset and what it means to the campaign long term. (thus u use the AT-gun vs infantry as theres no long term penalty for taking risk with it).
Due to this, I will argue; that the long run campaign in all other CC-games simulates the real life thinking and use of equipment more realistic. Atleast in this regard...
There, you have the most serious shortcoming of CCMT…  

The map deploy editor in CCMT seem to be the way to go, why is it not in the new games?...
I dont get that...

[Stwa]

platoon_michael,

Hi, you know I am just messin with you. Right? If there was a workable solution, they would have implemented it long ago.  

Stalky,

You're a great guy, and I am glad you are back on the boards again, but where were you during your absense, OUTER SPACE.  

So here they are, not necessarily in order of importance.

1. During a CCMT game (and perhaps other CC games), the AT guns fire when they friggen feel like it. There is not much you can do about that. I told them to knock it off. I even cursed at them and pounded the table but they kept shooting anyway.

2. If you looked at the pics (I doubt you did), you will notice that the guns have both AP and HE rounds available to them.

3. Remember AP stands for Armor Piercing (usually used on tanks), and HE stands for High Explosive (usually not used on tanks).

4. In my battle, the AI did respond with mortar fire. Lots of it too. It just didn't have any real effect, and the guns WERE NOT DESTROYED OR LOST.

5. The SYSTEM (not Stwa) deployed those guns, and there really isn't any cover on this map. BTW, a 20x20 map is 480 M (thats meters) square. So the AT guns were Beemed Down by the system (ARMY was very suprised), and then started shooting at ALL targets at POINT BLANK RANGE.

6. As I have explained many times before in many of my NOOB threads, rate of fire usually wins the day for vehicles and guns, since ranges are always point blank.    

7. Also, YOU ARE WRONG about the campaign. Some of the pics above were from my CCMT Okinawa campaign. I have special provisions in the briefings of each battle that enumerate accptable and not acceptable losses.

8. I hate to have to burst your bubble, but someone around here a long time ago, should have mentioned to you that NO CC game emulates real life. If you think it does, you are on serious drugs my friend.  

9. So, my AT guns killed several tanks, a mortar crew, a MG crew, and various other infantry schmucks trying to find their way to the victory locations. NO AT guns were lost, and only 2 crewman were killed.  

10. During the battle, I did not touch the keypad, or the mouse, other than to select the guns so the soldier monitor would display.

11. What makes single player gaming against the AI more realistic than a CC campaign, is that YOU CANNOT BS YOURSELF about winning, loses, or anything else.  

12. But when you play a campaign, the game may indicate that you WIN, the competition notwithstanding.  

[Stwa]

Oh and one other thing.

Maybe while you were away, you didn't play too much CC. But, I thought I would mention how visiblity works in CCMT.

In the element files of each game there are obstuction values for each type of terrain. Usually the further you are from a target (even an AT gun), the harder it is to see them.

...and, just because the HUMAN PLAYER can see the AT guns, doesn't mean ARMY tanks can see the AT guns.  

The ARMY mortar team saw them. I guess they didn't radio over to the tank commanders where the guns were. Probably because there is NO Radio Operator, on the mortar team. Who knows, go figure.

So, since ARMY tanks could not see the AT guns, the guns WERE CONCEALED, and the tanks bought the farm.  

[AT_Stalky]

[AT_Stalky]

[Stwa]

Try ambush, and don’t place em on hilltops with infinity LOS. -AT_Stalky

As, I said before, I didn't place them there, the SYSTEM did. They WERE in ambush mode. BTW, the tanks were ambushed too.
Remember platoon_michael, his guns were deployed in a forest with NO LOS. NO LOS is a problem for AT guns.

Mate, Im old enough to have served in an AT-gun platoon in real life, first as a loader, then gunner, later moving on to missiles.. Guess what, for the AT-gun (Pvpjäs 1110) they first intended to develop HE too, but they never actually did it (for my mentioned reasons). -AT_Stalky

WTF, the Swedes, its been centuries since Gustavos Adolphus, and before you know it, no one will remember ABBA either.

You risked the asset that is most useful to deal with other threats it was originally intended for. IE: u may use a MG /Mortar to deal with infantry, but you cant use them to deal with tanks, if such threats would come in later battles. -AT_Stalky

Aren't you forgetting that 2 tanks were killed in the battle. Actually, they were immobilized first, then they were killed, primarily becuase the AT gun gets of a shot about every 10 seconds or so. Or so it seems.

Try a GC vs a human. And see if you say the same after that. The only thing you successfully prove is that the CC-AI sucks. -AT_Stalky

I've done plenty of multiplayer along the way, and I stand by my previous remarks. I follow the old adage of choosing wisely, when it comes to MP opponents.

Again, try a human. They will likley say tactics and shrewdness is important. -AT_Stalky

No, when their tanks see 2 AT guns parked on the hill, that just beemed down from no where, they will say RATE OF FIRE, is going to decide the engagement.

I am, and so is US marines as well as UK-RAF and others. At least to a degree. -AT_Stalky

If you can find someone at USMC that thinks that instantaneously beeming down 2 47mm AT guns within 300-350 meters of enemy tanks (that can't see them), is realistic and emulates real life, you win a cookie.

The means justify the ends, is that what you trying to say? -AT_Stalky

You keep forgetting that the guns fire themselves. They don't NEED the Human Player to VIS the enemy or shoot at the enemy. They (the guns) MADE THAT DECISION. It is what the system would have them do.

[AT_Stalky]

The military court has now heard the prosecutors argument;

“You risked the asset that is most useful to deal with other threats it was originally intended for. IE: u may use a MG /Mortar to deal with infantry, but you cant use them to deal with tanks, if such threats would come in later battles. “

And we also heard the defence argument:
“Aren't you forgetting that 2 tanks were killed in the battle. Actually, they were immobilized first, then they were killed, primarily becuase the AT gun gets of a shot about every 10 seconds or so. Or so it seems.”

We the court rules unanimous, that Major Dale R Stwa is demoted to corporal for his negligence and reckless handling of state property..

[Stwa]

Indeed. Have you tried looking through the prisms of a AFV? That’s why they still today moves the tank with the commander holding his head up through the hatch. You know, so he can use his eyes (and maybe ears) to spot flashes and movements thus finding threats. ---- as for example AT-guns… -AT_Stalky

I checked out the tanks during the battle, and best I could tell, the hatches were closed tight and NO commanders were holding their heads up through the hatch. That must of happened because the tanks didn't see squat, and they NEVER fired one shot among them.

Well, as far as I know, the force is a combined force… Its not just a tank or tanks out on a stroll.. They have infantry etc with em. Thus many eyes. I can guarantee you, that the mortar team has a radio. But its more likely a FO, or whatever who use the radio to notify the tanks or whom ever needs to know whats needed. Or its the tank commander, (you know the man with his head up the hatch), who forward the cordinates to the mortar or the artillery... -AT_Stalky

You keep drifting in an out of what can happen in the game, and what can happen in your alternate universe. BTW, the only RADIOS are with the Command squads. Need I take screen shots of the teams to prove it too you.

Se answers above. A at gun who have fired are most likley spoted by someone in the enemy force. tick tack... A gun that fire for the seciond time is definatly spotted. tick tack.. incomming. -AT Stalky

But none of that happend during the battle, (which you say emulates real life). In this battle, the tanks didn't see squat, probably because the AT guns beemed down to the battlefield in a nano-second, the tanks were wasted and there was NO tick tack, as you call it.