[stiener]

Dima

BTW, thanks for the slam ..." probably you have more accurate info...but i wash my hands here, really don't care"....Bro

[Dima]

[stiener]

ahh, i am aware of the time stamp and the PM, but thanks for the in depth report tho.  

you really were not helping the cause of moving the mod forward and making the mod a bit more playible ...debating back and forth about 17 PDR armour pen and APDS vs AP...armour thickness etc etc, was just mudding the waters. thats why the neg rep pts.
your un wanted sarcasm / un needed sarcasm, came later.

your welcome too...i know you meant you washed your hands of this thread, but if you dont really care if Cathartes changes the values or not, why jump in and debate our points?

you are a wealth of knowledge Dima, seriously, but, sometimes, you cloud the issue and now we have just made this thread a bit of a joke by our ranting back and forth at each other.

accept my apology for the negetive rep points and lets move on mate.

[Dima]

[crewman]

Hi,
I appreciate what stiener is trying to accomplish in his original post ... promote best gameplay within historical limits.
That being said, I also agree that historical accuracy should be represented as best as the game platform can achieve ... without negatively overwhelming other aspects of gameplay.
Therefore, I would like to chime in on this debate based on what I've noticed in my limited experience in CC as well some historical info I've heard of.

First though I think it's interesting to note that gameplay results should be based on an average of combat experiences ... since CC is based on a roll of the dice type formula, and let's face it, sometimes we can roll bad outcomes ... in some ways similar to real life: ever bent down to pick up something small off the ground, and missed two or three times?
And since there are so many factors that represent the outcome of each shot, it seems reasonable to expect results that don't always match up with what appears to be a for sure thing.
But if the average outcome of several or more encounters (and in different situations), show the balance is biased too far in one direction compared to expected results ... then perhaps a change is needed.

In PitF, (in my opinion) I think the Panther data seems close to what I would expect ... in actual gameplay. The Allies need to outflank a Panther and with two or more Shermans. And a Firefly needs to catch him with a side shot or from behind cover ... and not with a head to head engagement in the open.
But if the FF gets the first (non frontal) shot and hits ... then I'd expect the FF to win most of the time (or course depended on the situation).

The 17pdr was a feared gun and should be represented as such in game.

And lastly, in my opinion, Dima's data (in Ground Tactics 5) does a really good job of portraying the Panther vs 17pdr.

Another example of historical accuracy vs gameplay can be seen with mortars. TLD (original) had such powerful/instantly accurate mortars ... that gameplay would rarely allow players to realize infantry combat, due to mortars restricting their movement or reducing infantry's roll in combat. And it may be true that mortars cause much damage and loss of life ... it's also true that infantry plays a huge roll in combat.
... imo, Dima's data in GT5 brought mortars into balance with the rest of the game.  

david .... aka davidssfx (now crewman, due to email hack)

[crewman]

Haven't had much time for any gaming lately, but bought LSA and gave a few single battles a try in GJS ... checked some BG's, maps, and sounds.
Thanks Cathartes for your huge undertaking getting GJS to LSA with all the new stuff and corrections ...the best CC to date imo.

Had several test battles with FF vs. Tiger ... and things seemed ok to me

Only minor things I prefer:
1.attached MG42 sound
2.return to original CC shell bounce off armor sound 0054
3.explosion graphic (with fire color) for grenade ... may not be as realistic, but players can better see where grenade explodes

Thanks again
david

[Firefrost]

So regarding the above debate, if 300m is the able to pen value from the front, a side shot should be a fairly certain kill. Perhaps the problem is not the penetration data but the accuracy?

[stiener]

i would agree Firefrost. i did mention accuracy a couple of times in my posts too.  

crewman...care to share your test battles out comes with the tiger?   did you manage to kill any?  

perhaps you might test battle some panthers...as they show up way sooner than the tigers in this mod, and give us your opinion on your results.  

i still say for game playibilty and considering the very large amounts [ IMO ] [ more than in the original GJS ] of panthers in the new mod, a tweak of the Fireflys is in order.

also...Cathartes's original idea was to have a functioning reinforce button on some of the allied BG's, thus increasing the number of FF's in the game, which would help the allied cause. but so far it appears this function isnt there. so that doesnt help that the allies dont have allot of FF's to counter the Cats IMO. hence the tweak.  

i also notice that a few allied BG's come up short on the ratio of FF's vs shermans in the BG's. was that done on purpose Cathartes?

remember Playability has to be a factor in any great mod. [ not saying this isnt a great mod already    ]

[Cathartes]

David- nice to see you back around, thanks for the substantive comments a few posts above.  Hope you're doing well.

[Cathartes]

[crewman]

1.
FF rolled up on the railway embankment and spottted a side view of a Panther at 196m.
FF took first shot a missed
Panther fired back and missed
FF knocked out Panther with second shot, as seen in screenshot.

2.
FF moves over railway railway embankment near top of map with command tank behind, and sees Panther frontal side view 223m away.
Panther fires first and misses
FF knocks out Panther first shot

First battle with FF vs. Panther

Also, if I remember correctly ... reinforcement button (in TLD) didn't become available to use until a BG was depleted to a certain low point ... how the game calculates when the low point is reached, I don't know. Or maybe it becomes available after a certain amount of time?
If interested, you can see reinforcement work in TLD with the GT5 mod ... it happens relatively quickly, since the BG's were designed with less units than usual due to a shorter length campaign (note: only in the Objective Caen campaign).

note: besides being a good sound effect ... the CC original round bouncing off armor sound (0054) is also helpful in determining if a round hit or missed, since it is a very unique sound.

[stiener]

well your doing better than me FF vs Panther but all my engagements are vs Panther frontal armour as my opponent isnt dumb enough to turn sideways.    both your examples appear to be side shots.
the accuracy of both tanks in your examples seem about the same...bad...lol.  in my engagements the panther is usually the winner as it hits more than it miss's and ive had many, many more 17 PDR vs Cat duels in my GC than your two.
i apprieciate you taking the time to do some play testing tho, and your examples are interesting, but somewhat inconclusive IMHO bro.

in my GJS LSA GC were in day 11 / 1500...so 6 days in...i just played a battle with the 4th Arm BDE and there was no reinforce button. i was looking for one.
allot, if not all of my initial BG's that landed on the 1st day have all recieved reinforcements to there rosters....as was expected. [ but a couple of BG's were short FF's, recieving only 2 FF's where other Bg's recieved 4 or 5 FF's with the same ratio of sherman reinforcements. these being the 7/3 CDN...2 FF's..and the 8/3 BR ...2 FF's ]

in one of my LSA GC's im in day 19 / 9:00....about 12 turns in ? im german....theres no reinforce buttons...the rules dont say theres a reinforce button. but the german BG's do get reinforced as time goes by....ive seen it in most of the 10 ss and 9 ss BG's. the allied para bg's get tanks as reinforcements when certain parameters are met.

i dont know if TLD [ as david says ] is set up the same as LSA? couldnt Matrix shed some light on this for us Cathartes?? you have there ear  :D

crewman...your MG 42 zip says corrupted after i DL it to my desktop and try to open it.

[stiener]

another observation Cathartes, dont know if its been mentioned before. the allied A/T guns will always shoot at german inf and expose themselves. they fire a few gun rds and then fire there rifles.
not sure about the german A/T guns but im guessing that they would do the same?

i believe in GJS A/T guns would not shoot at inf unless you made them?

[crewman]

[crewman]

Hi stiener,
Put together a simple test range for you to test FF against Panther

1.Edited the Brettville map so that the top third is all coded as grass with the same elevation throughout
2.Edited Panther ammo and smoke in vehicles text ... so that it has no ammo or smoke
3.Created a battle containing BG's with FF and Panther

Install instructions:
First make copies of the below mentioned files, so you can put them back after testing ... then follow steps listed below

1.Put seven maps files starting with "brettevl" ... in folder:
C:\Matrix Games\Close Combat Last Stand Arnhem\GJS\Maps

2.Put the : "vehicles.txt" file in:
C:\Matrix Games\Close Combat Last Stand Arnhem\GJS\DATA\Base

3.Put the "Brettville Target" file in folder:
C:\Matrix Games\Close Combat Last Stand Arnhem\GJS\Games\Battles

You can get the files in attached link
https://www.dropbox.com/s/641ce2n0nz8495c/GJS%20FF%20vs%20Panther.zip

Below test results are from single player with direct facing frontal armor (playing as Panther) at 405 - 410 meters distance. In multiplayer you can vary distance and angle.
results of four tests below:
note:
h=hit
m=miss
k=knocked out (crew abandoning vehicle)

1.h,h,h,h,h,k

2.k

3.m,k

4.h,h,h,h,m,h,h,h,k

[crewman]

Below are the four test results with Panther firing at a FF (FF has no ammo), 400 meters apart (playing as FF) ... and with direct facing frontal armor engagement

1.k
2.m,k
3.k
4.k

From these limited tests from both sides ... I'd conclude that accuracy isn't an issue under these ideal conditions.
And, in my opinion ... these results seem close to my expectation of what the historical real life situation would have looked like.

But as you can see, the FF has very little chance of ever winning a face to face frontal armor encounter with the Panther ... since it appears to knock-out the FF with the first shot that hits, and is very accurate on first shot.

[Firefrost]

Nice posts crewman, so it looks like the Panther has a pretty good advantage over the firefly. Guess the question is whether the historical accuracy is worth the balance? I would say increasing the number of fireflies may be necessary given that fairly considerable advantage?

[stiener]

good job crewman.

so that being proven, i still agree with Firefrost....what do we do about playability?
theres more Cats than the old GJS, so what do we do about redressing the balance?

[Cathartes]

Sorry for the delay in the update.  It's still on tap, but up against a couple of big work-related deadlines and it's derailing proper attention. I do intend to have something out before the core holidays hit.

[stiener]

thanks Cathartes  :D

"work" is over rated you know  

im just playing Crewmans New Operation Perch, Op, with Crewman    and im the germans. i just noticed with the 12 ss 26 pzgd BG [ the one with 5 panthers ] that in the roster that the Veteran pzgrd squads are LESS points to buy than the NON vet pzrd squads. dont know if this is a mistake or done on purpose?

i also noticed that in the german roster, you can get your 80 mm mortor in either the regular or support slots. this is how it should be in the allied roster with the 3 in mortor as we have already noted    and the MMG vickers IMHO.