[AT_Stalky]

[sieterayos]

[sieterayos]

[Stwa]

Assuming we are to judge the "evil" of an individual or regime by the raw figures of their victims- a big assumption- that leaves Stalin/USSR trailing far behind the US. Quite apart from the extermination of the indigenous Americans, the holocaust of slaves, the victims of colonial oppression and the first concentration camps- a US invention in the Philippines, and the obvious casualties of US imperialist aggression in, for the sake of brevity, Iraq, Afghanistan, Panama, Honduras, Chile, Nicaragua and Indonesia, Vietnam, there are the countless millions who die each and every year from poverty and starvation, held in subjugation by the US, its proxies and supported regimes who favour US banks and corporations.

The Polish historian W?adys?aw Konopczy?ski has suggested that concentration camps originated in Poland during the Bar Confederation rebellion (1768-1772), when the Russian Empire established three concentration camps for Polish rebel captives awaiting deportation to Siberia. -w

Concentraion Camp

Sieterayov: the above underlined phrase is a link to an article in the Wiki. I hope you used the "practise link" I supplied in my previous post. Also, it would help me a great deal, if you could cut down on the run-on sentences. Its no biggy, we all do it from time to time. Thanks ...

[sieterayos]

[Stwa]

In modern usage, that is the arbitrary internment of civilians, I think you'll find the US and British Empire led the way... I'm afraid I don't understand your term "run-on sentences". -sieterayov

I read the article, and the definition changed after the experiences in the Nazi camps, implying at least to me, that the Germans led the way, hence the modern defintion.

You might try finding support for your assertions and including them in your original posts, because I have a funny feeling your just trying to blow infammatory bullshit into the forum for your own amusement. Again, no biggy, we have all done it ourselves at some point in our lives. Thanks ...

[Stwa]

Quite apart from the extermination of the indigenous Americans, the holocaust of slaves, the victims of colonial oppression and the first concentration camps- a US invention in the Philippines, and the obvious casualties of US imperialist aggression in, for the sake of brevity, Iraq, Afghanistan, Panama, Honduras, Chile, Nicaragua and Indonesia, Vietnam, there are the countless millions who die each and every year from poverty and starvation, held in subjugation by the US, its proxies and supported regimes who favour US banks and corporations. -sieterayov

While epidemic disease was by far the leading cause of the population decline of the American indigenous peoples after 1492, there were other contributing factors, all of them related to European contact and colonization. One of these factors was warfare. According to demographer Russell Thornton, although many lives were lost in wars over the centuries, and war sometimes contributed to the near extinction of certain tribes, warfare and death by other violent means was a comparatively minor cause of overall native population decline. -wiki

Population History of Indigenous Americans

[AT_Stalky]

[sieterayos]

[sieterayos]

[Stwa]

The US and British camps, then, fall firmly into the modern use of the term into which use we were both born. -sieterayov

During the 20th century, the arbitrary internment of civilians by the state reached a climax with Nazi concentration camps (1933–1945). As a result, the term "concentration camp" today carries many of the connotations of "extermination camp" (or "death camp"), and is sometimes used synonymously with these terms by people who are unaware of its original pre-1933 usage. Not all Nazi concentration camps were "extermination camps". Many were used primarily to house forced laborers. The inmates in these camps were held there for the purpose of exploitation, rather than for extermination. -wiki

Concentration Camp

So, to believe your BS, someone would have to prove that the American Camps in the Phillipines in 1902 were deliberately set up for the express purpose of exterminating the residents of the camp.

And, if so established, me thinks you would then have to realize that the Spanish camps in Cuba in 1897 were also extermination camps. It is fairly clear to me that the American and Spanish camps were not established with the express intent to exterminate the inhabitants of the camps, and therefore do NOT fit the tenants of the modern definition of same.

So, unless new info arrives, and since I do not believe you to be stupid, I will just conclude that you are trolling for amusement.  

[AT_Stalky]

[sieterayos]

[johnsilver]

[sieterayos]

[Stwa]

Your pedantry, however, serves only to distract yourself from the original point which you have nowhere even attempted to refute, that with regards to raw figures of killing, the US ruling class holds the crown over all contenders. -sieterayov

Well, my points are progressing, but just not as fast as you would like. Partly because I am slower now days, but also because of your constant effort with every post to obscure facts. On the forums, your posts aren't really classified as lies per se, but rather the rants of a troll that is just amusing himself. So when it goes slow, it is less enjoyable for you.

Your first point created the impression that the US planned a systematic extermination of indigenous peoples (their non-combatants) from North America. You know that is total BS. My response is on page 8. You chose the word "extermination" so that forumites might think it was pre-meditated and always viloent, which is not true.

Your third point led forumites to believe the US invented the concentration camp. After some time, we now know that is total BS no matter which defintion we apply. The pre 1933 definition according to the Wiki article would have Russia as the inventor of the first concentration camp, and using the later defintion, it would be Germany. My responses are on page 7 and 8.

So far your points have something in common. You are trying to relate deaths of civilians caused by disease or famine to the US Government, while avoiding making the same correlation to other nations, like Spain. But in so doing, you attempt to insinuate that all these people were violently exterminated in a PRE-MEDITATED scheme. It's already a slippery slope for you, because we will discuss 1933 Ukraine at some point.

[sieterayos]

[johnsilver]

[Stwa]

Yes, the US did invent the concentration camp but actually, it's not central to my argument. The US used concentration camps in which thousands died of disease and summary executions. -sieterayov

The Spannish camps in Cuba seem to predate the American camp in the Phillipines?

After Arsenio Martínez Campos had failed to pacify the Cuban rebellion, the Conservative government of Antonio Cánovas del Castillo sent Weyler out to replace him. This selection met the approval of most Spaniards, who thought him the proper man to crush the rebellion. While serving as a Spanish general, he was called "Butcher Weyler" because hundreds of thousands of people died in his concentration camps.

He was made governor of Cuba with full powers to suppress the insurgency (rebellion was widespread in Cuba) and restore the island to political order and its sugar production to greater profitability. Initially, Weyler was greatly frustrated by the same factors that had made victory difficult for all generals of traditional standing armies fighting against an insurgency. While the Spanish troops marched in regulation and required substantial supplies, their opponents practiced hit-and-run tactics and lived off the land, blending in with the non-combatant population. He came to the same conclusions as his predecessors as well—that to win Cuba back for Spain, he would have to separate the rebels from the civilians by putting the latter in safe havens, protected by loyal Spanish troops. By the end of 1897, General Weyler had relocated more than 300,000 into such "reconcentration camps".

This article goes on to state that Weyler learned this "tactic" by studying Tcumseh Sherman in Civil War days.

Valeriano Weyler

[Stwa]

Yes, the US did invent the concentration camp but actually, it's not central to my argument. The US used concentration camps in which thousands died of disease and summary executions. -sieterayov

BTW, me thinks this is the explanation for the summary executions. Harsh indeed, but of imprisioned combants, and therefore outside the realm of all definitions of concentration camp, which I believe requires us to consider the interments of civilians. Maybe you were trying to lead us to believe the American's were executing civilians?

And if I am not mistaken, the pre 1933 definition of concentration camp does NOT require violence to the internees of the camp. Only the post 1933 defintion (an extermination camp actually) requires that, and it also requires the pre-planned intention to exterminate ALL of the internees. It would be logical if the the camp included GAS CHAMBERS, there is some evidence for pre-meditation. You know, a system that could kill alot of internees in a short amount of time.  

And also notice the "war of extermination" that Bell was planning, seems to be refering to enemy combatants, not the civilians that were interned in the safe zones of the Phillipine Camps.

One circular by Bell explained, when an American was "murdered", soldiers were instructed to "by lot select a P.O.W.--preferably one from the village in which the assassination took place--and execute him."

Another circular rationalized that "it is an inevitable consequence of war that the innocent must generally suffer with the guilty" and that "a short and severe war creates in the aggregate less loss and suffering than a benevolent war indefinitely prolonged."

Bell warned his commanders that young officers should not be restrained or discouraged without excellent reason. "It is not necessary to seek or wait for authority from headquarters to do anything or take any action which will contribute to the end in view."

Bell reasoned that since all natives were treacherous, it was impossible to recognize "the actively bad from only the passively so."

Chaffee received copies of Bell's directive and was aware of Bell's plan to launch a what the anti-imperialists labeled a "war of extermination".

Most notable of Bell's numerous engagements with the Filipinos was that near Porac in the island of Luzon, in which he was wounded while leading a charge. Despite his alleged war crimes, the U.S. awarded Bell the Medal of Honor, for "gallantry in action".

Franklin Bell