Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:13 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine
Ok, since mobilisation was announced in Ukraine, they lost 4 MBT and 1 Bomber trying to run the equipment that wasn't in use or duly serviced for many years.
Btw, these are for sure not the Russian servicemen, probably members of the disbanded Ukranian riot police (Berkut).
Wait...What?
I don't get it. If Putin is doing everything fair and square, then why does every single soldier shown on Eastern border of Ukraine or inside Crimea have ski masks to hide their identity. Plus the Russian soldiers are wearing unmarked uniforms with no insignias like special forces. These are certainly not police. Maybe they hide their faces to avoid reprisals or problems with the Russian mafia. Putin is afraid of populist overthrow of his own government. Much like what just happen to the puppet leader of Ukraine when all this mess began. Putin is making a big mistake if he gets too greedy...blowback is a bitch.
sorry to say but you are all wrong.
First of all, the RA soldiers on the Eastern border of Ukraine don't wear masks although such masks are included in the uniform set as it could be pretty cold this time of year. Btw, the US army has neck gaiters in their uniform sets as well that could be used as same type of mask.
Second, the guys on the photos I posted are definetly not the Russian servicemen as they have different uniform, equipment and armament. They are most likely former servicemen of the Ukranian riot-police units (Berkut) that were loyal to the regime by the end and because of that were disbanded with one of the first legal act of the provisional goverment (along with cancelling the Russian language as beeing the official regional language in Ukraine). The RF offered them the Russian citizenship and support if they will defend Crimea and quite a number of them fled to Crimea to be a backbone of the Crimean self-defence units. Btw they were the ones who were shooting in the air when the Ukranian army unarmed column was trying to get into that airfield. And yes, they really hate all these west Ukranian rebels after standing 2 month under molotov cocktails and sniper fire in the end.
Yes maybe half of the soldiers in U.S. army squad in the snow deployed in Alaska or some other arctic region wear ski masks. But never 100% of the soldiers shown in every single photo or video clip wears ski mask. Unless it is action vs Mafia, Cartels or illegal special forces activity. Crimea is not exactly known to be cold weather region.
I don't think so. These are highly trained special forces under instructions to wear ski masks to hide their identity and wearing unmarked uniforms. Militias wear Adidas and street clothes with AK-47's. These guys are heavily armed and well organized. Plus there are "militias" positioned on border with Crimea to interfere with Ukrainians.
The deposed leader of Ukraine was a puppet leader. That is why the people rebelled. It could happen to Putin himself if he is not careful or to other nations. America is too much of Police State for that to happen here. The Police in America is like Military already and will storm into your home and shoot your dogs if even you are a suspect. I think what happened in the Ukraine could be the beginning of Arab Spring style uprisings in Europe & former USSR nations.
The tumult we’re seeing in Ukraine isn’t simply a recent tension over Crimea. Its roots go back to the defining event of Ukraine’s modern history: the Holodomor or "hunger-extermination" of the 1930s, in which as many as eight million people died.
Ukraine in 1932 was a satellite of the Soviet Union that had long been struggling to find its place as an independent republic in the USSR. In that year and the one following, Joseph Stalin closed the borders and seized almost all the harvest, leaving little for Ukrainians themselves.
After the Holodomor that left so many millions dead, opposition to Moscow was crushed. But the push-back against the Soviets flared a number of times over the following decades: in 1954, 1972, 1988, in 1991 after the collapse of the Soviet Union, and again in 2004 with the Orange Revolution against a corrupt and eastward-looking government.
Dima are you arguing that Russian troops were not deployed into Crimea? Or just that not all the troops we see in the pictures are Russian?
Im saying that those guys shown in my post are definetly not the Russian servicemen (although they will be soon when they swear to the RF) and if you look closer you would notice that they are equipped and armed differently then the "polite armed men" during first days.
The tumult we’re seeing in Ukraine isn’t simply a recent tension over Crimea. Its roots go back to the defining event of Ukraine’s modern history: the Holodomor or "hunger-extermination" of the 1930s, in which as many as eight million people died.
Ukraine in 1932 was a satellite of the Soviet Union that had long been struggling to find its place as an independent republic in the USSR. In that year and the one following, Joseph Stalin closed the borders and seized almost all the harvest, leaving little for Ukrainians themselves.
After the Holodomor that left so many millions dead, opposition to Moscow was crushed. But the push-back against the Soviets flared a number of times over the following decades: in 1954, 1972, 1988, in 1991 after the collapse of the Soviet Union, and again in 2004 with the Orange Revolution against a corrupt and eastward-looking government.
Yes maybe half of the soldiers in U.S. army squad in the snow deployed in Alaska or some other arctic region wear ski masks. But never 100% of the soldiers shown in every single photo or video clip wears ski mask. Unless it is action vs Mafia, Cartels or illegal special forces activity. Crimea is not exactly known to be cold weather region.
tried to walk along the streets for several hours at 5-8 deg C and wind?
Quote:
I don't think so. These are highly trained special forces under instructions to wear ski masks to hide their identity and wearing unmarked uniforms. Militias wear Adidas and street clothes with AK-47's. These guys are heavily armed and well organized. Plus there are "militias" positioned on border with Crimea to interfere with Ukrainians.
Ukranian riot-police is something in between of US national guards and SWAT.
They are authorized with AK-47, sniper rifles, RPGs and GPMGs.
Quote:
The deposed leader of Ukraine was a puppet leader. That is why the people rebelled. It could happen to Putin himself if he is not careful or to other nations. America is too much of Police State for that to happen here. The Police in America is like Military already and will storm into your home and shoot your dogs if even you are a suspect. I think what happened in the Ukraine could be the beginning of Arab Spring style uprisings in Europe & former USSR nations.
whose puppet he was? as the RF had big problems with Ukraine during his term.
Ok, since mobilisation was announced in Ukraine, they lost 4 MBT and 1 Bomber trying to run the equipment that wasn't in use or duly serviced for many years.
update: 2 T-64BV destroyed by catching fire, 3 more T-64BV got badly damaged, 1 152mm SP gun (Msta) destroyed by catching fire (1 crewman died), 1 Su-24 bomber crashed due to malfunction.
Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:15 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine
In my post the clue was that the situation is not black & white there. If we look back closer to the history of the region there are more and more evidencies of its complexity. There no bad Russians and good&poor Ukrainians as well as no the only fair Russians and bad EU/US (and oposite).
to Drizzt: I mean that Southern EU countries have now more important (for them) problems than Ukraine which is far away. For sure the economical situation in Italy is not a real crisis. The real crisis is on Cuba or in Somalia, not in Italy.
Peacefull change of government is quite common. Im not sure how that has gone with Berlusconi (that was a final effect of a pressure from the street), but in young democracies (post WP countries) it was rare situation for the first 10-15 years that periods between elections have not been shortened due to government fall.
If this is how their MPs behave, you can imagine what their grunts are doing. US's and EU's pals at work in democratic Ukraine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nnmbR-MWFA
it doesn't matter as the bad guy is still and will always be the RF .
even if I say that armed masked persons patroll Kiev and if you are stopped and not speaking the Ukranian they can seize your car or treat as Moscal (like in this video) that would only be the Russian propaganda .
Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:30 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine
to Devastator: we are a parliamentary republic, not a presidential republic: this fact means that governments can fall in parliament (never in streets) and immediately new governments can born in parliament (if a majority of parties can’t find this new government, of course we return immediately to vote). Normally we should vote every five years (sometime, if not often, before 5 years as I have explained).
The clown Berlusconi is now officially a criminal (officially because finally certificated by an italian sentence): the only reason of his power for so many years has been the sloth, the “undercover accommodation”, the mediocrity and the cowardice of the traditional left party leaders.
The crisis is also here: our small and average industries suffer a lot (they are the backbone and the prestige of our economy). We don’t have and we don’t want to have many big multinationals (of course we have some of them, but only few): euro rulers want to force us to become “more similar” to USA and/or German economy but, in my opinion, they will destroy us in this way (the only good thing are some ethical rules that I hope we will import, but that’s all).
Speaking more in general, after the end of the real socialism, the desertification of the middle class and the foolish accumulation of wealth in very small hands it’s a common problem in all western democracies: the ruling classes of all states don’t have fear of nothing now, so they try to re-take all (and they have the media to support their lies): conditions of work like in 1800 it’s their final goal for masses (or something like a technological middle ages). Democracies all risks to die (I mean to die as democracies) in this neo-liberalism system. A good kind of European Union should be the tool to avoid this fate, for now it's exactly the opposite. (sorry to all for the off- topic).
Drizzt
Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:23 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine
Yes I think Democracy is a big lie and most of the "Free" world Government are frauds. America is suppose to be the beacon of light and the great Democracy. Yet we have elections like Banana Republics, where greedy multi-national corporations, Foreign Government and Partisan billionaires can simply purchase elections...with unlimited amounts of cash and in complete secrecy. What almost brought American and the World Economy to the brink of collapse was the complete Fraud of the Real Estate market...with completely bogus bank loans for properties that nobody could afford. Yet nothing real was done to correct these problems and the masses of unemployed still have no hope for jobs or to ever afford a neighborhood that is not infested with hoodlums or in disrepair. The media demonizes Socialism or even Social Programs to indoctrinate the masses to oppose the very policies that help them. So there is really no such thing as Socialism I agree. Big Government and Big Corporations are one in the same.
to Devastator: we are a parliamentary republic, not a presidential republic: this fact means that governments can fall in parliament (never in streets) and immediately new governments can born in parliament (if a majority of parties can’t find this new government, of course we return immediately to vote). Normally we should vote every five years (sometime, if not often, before 5 years as I have explained).
The clown Berlusconi is now officially a criminal (officially because finally certificated by an italian sentence): the only reason of his power for so many years has been the sloth, the “undercover accommodation”, the mediocrity and the cowardice of the traditional left party leaders.
The crisis is also here: our small and average industries suffer a lot (they are the backbone and the prestige of our economy). We don’t have and we don’t want to have many big multinationals (of course we have some of them, but only few): euro rulers want to force us to become “more similar” to USA and/or German economy but, in my opinion, they will destroy us in this way (the only good thing are some ethical rules that I hope we will import, but that’s all).
Speaking more in general, after the end of the real socialism, the desertification of the middle class and the foolish accumulation of wealth in very small hands it’s a common problem in all western democracies: the ruling classes of all states don’t have fear of nothing now, so they try to re-take all (and they have the media to support their lies): conditions of work like in 1800 it’s their final goal for masses (or something like a technological middle ages). Democracies all risks to die (I mean to die as democracies) in this neo-liberalism system. A good kind of European Union should be the tool to avoid this fate, for now it's exactly the opposite. (sorry to all for the off- topic).
Drizzt
“A development of the productive forces is the absolutely necessary practical premise [of Communism], because without it want is generalized, and with want the struggle for necessities begins again, and that means that all the old crap must revive.”
Karl Marx
Where, then, was the real socialism? Was it not the reviving of all the old crap dressed in "Marxist" rhetoric? As Trotsky put it, "Marxism converted socialism into a science, but this does not prevent some ‘Marxists’ from converting Marxism into a Utopia."
The growth of giant, monopolistic banks and corporations is the progressive content of capitalism. They represent the most efficient organisation of labour and technology with the capacity to eliminate generalised want. The problem are capitalist social relations which make this massive social advance an enemy of the people that create the wealth, the working class. The task of the real socialist, then, is not to advocate for small and medium size business, which in any case only desires to become big business, but to replace market regulation and private ownership with democratic control by producers and consumers and social ownership of the great banks and corporations.
To promote small business against large is not only socially and economically regressive, it is also, in times of crisis, the rallying cry of fascism, "national socialism." The middle class, is only "socialist" in so far as it is ruined by finance capital and threatened with demotion to the working class or unemployed rump. It is nationalist because it fears the international working class which threatens its privileges and pretensions. As history has shown, fascism ditches its "socialism" at the first opportunity, to become the most violent, repressive political tool of big capital.
Whatever their origins, Social Democracy since WW1, Stalinism and various middle class radical groups never had social ownership of the means of production controlled by the working class, as their objectives or social revolution as the means to that end. They have always, at best, sought to gain for the working class, a fairer share of the capitalist cake, so as to ensure their own privileges. Neo-Liberalism since 1978-9 has only exposed the bankruptcy of this project. In the changed economic conditions since deregulation, where national reformism is no longer possible, what were once capitalist parties for the working class have been converted into new big business parties. The elections faced by workers the world over are now between different parties entirely hostile to their interests. Class compromise is virtually finished. Anti-terrorism laws, police state surveillance programs and extra judicial executions are filling the vacuum.
If this is how their MPs behave, you can imagine what their grunts are doing. US's and EU's pals at work in democratic Ukraine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nnmbR-MWFA
it doesn't matter as the bad guy is still and will always be the RF .
even if I say that armed masked persons patroll Kiev and if you are stopped and not speaking the Ukranian they can seize your car or treat as Moscal (like in this video) that would only be the Russian propaganda .
I'm not sure what you have access to, but in the UK, the anti-RF propaganda offensive is absolutely relentless. Anyone who has not yet figured that the media is not free and objective but spouts a political line determined by the interests of British and US finance capital, can only come away, at best, confused. Nevertheless, there is no enthusiasm here for war.
Most reports here show a division of support in Ukraine for the EU or RF line. This is how they make the reports appear balanced. Typically, in interviews with what purport to be ordinary Ukrainian citizens, the pro-RF people are given sound bites in which they state their support for RF while the pro-putsch people are given much more time to denounce Russian "imperialism". The reportage is then rounded up by an interview either with a Russian speaking Ukrainian who wants to stay with the Ukraine/is leaving the Crimea to go back to the Ukraine/regards Russia as their roots but not their Ukrainian present or just wants "peace and to get on with my life" etc etc or with a representative of the "democratic" Kiev putsch who lies and distorts at will and to their heart's content. The reporter then makes a snide remark about the illegality of what RF is doing and then we're back to the TV studio. This is what's dished up night after night.
On radio, we have more interviews with the putsch government officials and all manner of "intellectuals" and pundits clamouring to stick the boot into RF. These range from equating Putin with Hitler, to pseudo-psychological analogies of the RF with a mental patient and a whole lot in between.
I return to my original point in this thread, then, that nowhere does anyone mention what the US/EU are doing in the Ukraine or that evidence already in the public domain demonstrates clearly that once again, the US had illegally engineered a regime change to install a puppet government, this time supporting Neo-Nazis. That the West is interested only in human rights, freedom and international law, is taken as a given. How could it be otherwise? It's as if the Balkans, Afghanistan and Iraq, Libya and Syria (anyone ever mention the deployment of masked, unidentified special ops forces by the West there? Sshhhh) never happened.
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