[Bungarra]

Soooo. Sulla, I & a lot of others are hearing what you are saying.

That it hasn't turned out like we all would have hoped is to say the least a let down...

We are all passionate about this game , & reality says to me that if it was not for you the CC community would be much poorer

Don't beat yourself up about it.. nor let anybody else.. we all want the same thing... but we don't know how to go about it.

I really do hope TBF go's back to selectable battle units.. or at least the option to do so...

That was why CC5 (& similar) was & still is the most playable game of the lot... why they have shifted from this format is beyond me..

Do you have the source code or does matrix own it?

Just a bit of hope there that.... maybe one day.........

[platoon_michael]

First off I'm very sorry to hear about your ill health and how the Co. went under.
Take care of yourself,It's more important than a game or the Mods your trying to save.


It does kinda make sense now.
You guys spent countless hours working on stuff we knew nothing about only to hear TONS of complaints from us when WAR was released.
Kinda makes sense now how so many people involved with CC on the business end no longer participate in the forums.

But from a consumer stand point I cant change my opinion of WAR just because you guys got screwed.

The Girly soldiers is horrible.(I don't know how to fix it)
The deployment bug I've posted is horrible.(Been there since CCIV)
Mortars are still too powerful.(I don't know how to fix it)
LOS is horrible.(I don't know how to fix it,or the time/know how to correct it.Compared to CCIV)
AI is horrible,the AI movement on the strategic map is horrible,the use/non use of support for the AI on the strategic map is horrible.


As for giving US the code or an open source project?
Who here can do it?
I can almost imagine 30 people working on it part time and ending up with another huge mess.Or squabbling over how it should be.

I'd love to see a Free-Deploy editor for the re-releases.
Pzt_Kanov would love to have someone update QClone.
But we don't have those type of guys anymore.
The only person to have done any tools for CC in the past 10 years has been Mafi,cant have one guy,its just too much.

I'm not trying to be mean here,its just the facts from a consumers point of view.
And to honest I wish you hadn't dropped this bomb on us.
Just another dagger for me.Another reinforcement that I'm probably not getting a patch for WAR


Here's hoping TBF will evolve into a game to be worth having on my PC for 20 years like CC has.(Actually since '99 for me)

[Nomada_Firefox]

[Sulla]

Hia Guys,

I have actually thought about Kickstarter. I really do think that working together is the way to go. ALL of us.

When I did the initial mail out from CSO, I got several replies from programmers. What we need is a design. Like I said I have several design docs, by several people. Anyone who wants to read them can. I do however think we need a private forum, anyone interested can sign up. Its just if we or anyone here wants to do this properly it needs to be away from Matrix/Slitherine or anyone else! Open ource once we start and have a project, but until then it would need to be the community and not open to Matrix etc.

I just want a better CC. There are hundreds/thousands of free game engines of all kinds out there. We are really looking at the simplest type of game engine as we still want to down. CC as Mick_xe5 wrote HAS to be top down.

Theoretically I own or my company owns the rights to the code, it was NEVER signed over to Matrix, ergo Matrix had no right to sell it or my company to anyone, but I have learned to be VERY wary. Dave stole far more than just the CC code from me. So now I think it has to be community based. To keep it safe from people like Matrix and Slitherine. I think if we started it would take on a momentum of its own. I know Luer and Attila are gone. But there are still people about! Tszjid? Mafi? Nomada? Platoon, I am sure we can find graphics guys. I was looking at how many have gone, but there are still guys around. We would need a project NDA, but with the aim of going totally open once we are under way. Southern Land told me that he has made his last map after his pc died and he lost all his most recent.

Game engines now are very different from way back and some are very modular. What we need is a clear overall vision. We set a project manager, design team, graphics team, programmers. A test team/head. If we started with an organization/structure of some kind, then you can avoid the chaos. Look at the huge projects that are completed as open source. I know how the industry works. It really is no different than creating a mod! Think about it! With the exception, that you have a clean slate, a good reference model and a good design! I think it has to be community based. To get all we want out of it. I fought to get the code, I wanted what we all want. The problem is that within the framework of the existing engine its essentially not possible. We can go at our own pace. There used to be a CC Open source project. Anyone remember? That was one guy!

Its either do it ourselves or wait for Matrix/Slitherine to deliver. I have been waiting an awful long time now! I want the community to own the game. Lok at the mods for the game, some are truly amazing.

I am pretty sure some of the older modders will be back at some point, the community is far from dead! Our whole world is being taken over by one thing or another and we are left with less and less. Forums are vanishing because of Social Media sites. Sites about history and people are vanishing as Wikipedia becomes the arbiter of all knowledge. [We cannot even add Simtek/CSS/CSO to wiki]

I really think think that community based is the only way we will 1) get what we all want. 2) Keep the game in the community and not be beholden to anyone! 3) Give the game multiple options so its possible to please a wide spectrum of players. In fact keeping it very optionable is one way of ensuring a great base game from day one!

S

[Sulla]

Stalky, sorry mate, my mistake!

Nomada, I am not here to put up with guilt slinging. I started CSO up again purely so I could keep my beloved game alive and do something for the community again. I have tried to explain what happened.

I know how much of the blame IS MINE. Why do you think I have been gone for 4 years?

S

[Nomada_Firefox]

[Sulla]

Nomada,

I was answering a question. I NEVER GOT PAID the last time, so what more could I get?

S

[Nomada_Firefox]

Why do you need money for a free proyect made with a free engine? This is a link from a free proyect http://www.stexcalibur.com/ and they did not ask for money.

[dj]

Sulla - I vaguely remember now hearing that Keith Z. not having any interest in helping promote the game after Atomic opted-out or lost their financial interest.  It's a shame he is being stubborn about sharing the source code or helping promote mods.  Whatever happened to Atomic, it is totally out of business?

[Pzt_Crackwise]

@Nomada:  I brought up the Kickstarter (community funding) possibility.

So I think if I have understood correctly, I see now two development possibilities:

1. Work on a new game as it had previously been done for the mods. People work on it on their spare time, noone gets paid (apart from donations etc.). The modders now also can tweak the source code to implement some changes.

2. Make a professional development plan. Explain every process transparently, i.e. who will be involved, the timeline of the project, the required financial plan, etc. Make a Kickstarter campaign and raise funds.

Method (1) is the good old mod development approach. No commercial things involved, every willing modder/developer/tester contributes as they wish.

Method (2) if done correctly is more efficient. It may also result in people dedicating themselves full-time and acquiring support from external programmers/artists. However, why should the supporters trust the developers and give their money prior to obtaining a game is a question which should be answered very transparently. That is why the Kickstarter campaigns for games are usually succesful for people/companies who have already proven themselves as one of the best at what they do and just try to develop something without producer interference. That's why it may not be a good approach in this case.

@Sulla:  By the way I haven't understood the ownership status of the CC source code. So now, Slytherine owns it. And you also claim to own it? What happens if you tweak the code and make a new game? What happens if you make a commercial game and what happens if you just make a free non-profit game?

[platoon_michael]

I do this for fun or a hobby if you want.
I haven't touched my Mod in months and probably won't for months to come.

I'm not one you'd want to rely on to have to work on something.

Even with fishing if I micromanage it to death,down to the littlest detail it takes the fun out of it.

Sorry

[Pzt_Crackwise]

Another thing:

For those familiar with the Jagged Alliance games, a very successful voluntary modding operation (Method (1) described above) was carried out throughout the years for Jagged Alliance 2.

The JA community somehow (I don't remember how) obtained the source code. It was initially written in C and was very tough to mod. Then a team of modders converted it to C++, making it much more easier to modify. Then other people developed the 1.13 mod (basically a huge realism mod) and now that game is being modded endlessly and has transcended the original game in many aspects.

So what I am saying is, it is possible. But it requires dedicated people, who have spare time for such projects. But the worst of all is the CC community has dwindled in numbers in the last years and the number of people who understand from such things decreased a lot also with it.

[Nomada_Firefox]

Tell me, why do we need a different CC game made at parallel? for give the revenge to Sulla? I do think that it be neccesary when Slitherine is making one new. Why do you think that it will be a failure? at least if you think it. Just because it is made by a team of three persons? How many people were working in the re-releases? probably no more.

Sorry but the arguments for new different CC game are zero and I do not know because we must support to the guy who he made the re-releases at first place, I have seen thousands of comments around the world about how these re-releases put the CC community at a slow death. Sorry but it is his fault and now is too late for change the events.

At other point, I go to give you a good proyect, why do you not start a new mod with the incoming Gatheway to Caen? or use your time making better tools for the game? if you love CC games really and you do not love more the money, this is my challenge. If you like CC mods, you have the better source at this moment for them.

Yes, Gatheway to Caen can look as a mod, I feel the same from the CC re-releases but at least GTC has a complete engine with all the features requested for years. Do you remember Sulla how many times have we asked you about load troops in vehicles? because all the community requested it for many time when you were making the re-releases at simtek.

[Sulla]

Nomada,

I would not build a new CC just for revenge. Having had 1 heart attack, I am not at all into wasting my time.

We worked on and got the men loading into vehicles for CC:AT. We got deployable sandags and fortifications for use in deploy. Numerous things like that were already worked on for AT, but never implemented into CC commercially. Ask Matrix why not!

@DJ

Keith is VERY strange, I met him a few times. He was never the great mind behind CC, that was Doug Walker. Keith was just lucky and he owned Atomic. Destineer own Atomic or the name which is all thats left of it. After Atomic failed on Red Phoenix, that was it, the company was folded. After burning through $3.5 million.

[Nomada_Firefox]

Sulla. I have nothing against you, only I have told things which probably many people have thought.

About Matrix, I have asked sometimes about the problems and new features, even when you were at charge. Usually I do not hide what I think.

[DAK_Legion]

Source Code FREE for all CC Players;)

I manage source code,I create my own mod free for the community;)

an obsolete game with and obsolete enginnery should be free for everyone

[dj]

[Antony_nz]

I think the maps looks good. The maps have a far more gritty look than the White washed PITF map. It looks cartoonie yes, but still. Looks nice....

As for the Strategic map. I don't like it. I loved the Strategic map for CC4 and 5. But that's also because Bulge and the break out in the Cotentin peninsula are a far more interesting battlefield too look at, Apposed to the  big green flat earth of France. Should of picked a better operation to simulate.

Added:
When ever i imagine up of a great mod idea, the first idea that starts me thinking is the Strategic map.
And all the great mods have had great locations to use as a strategic map.
E.G Woodlands with Berlin city in the middle ect...
Thats my two cents. Great thread.

[Sulla]

[Sulla]