[crewman]

Just started a GJS 7.3 GC with Steiner and have finished first seven battles and next is Merville for second battle there.
Force Morale is "on" and Timer set to "20" minutes.

With Morale "on" is seems the Allies are missing opportunities to capture inland VL's ... since the battle ends before Timer ... mostly from Axis morale break and a couple times from both sides exhausted morale break.
With Morale "off", I think the Allies would capture more inland VL's and move inland more quickly, but in LSA ... Battle Groups are lost, and don't re-enter strat map after being disbanded. So there is also a possible  big negative effect with Morale "off".
To cause a disband with Morale "off" would require all units on one side to be destroyed or all VL's captured ... which may not be likely?

I've never played this GC is previous versions, and only one attempt so far in LSA GJS 7.1 with 15 min, Morale "on" ... and about 77 battles into GC.

Question for poll is ... what do you think is best combination of Morale and Timer for this Grand Campaign?

[crewman]

Here are the capture territory results from first seven battles:
All maps I think Allies could hv captured more ground before Morale break ... the exception was Juno, where Germans destroyed all but a couple of Allied infantry units and immobilized two Allied tanks (but were still able to fire).

[Drizzt]

[crewman]

[Drizzt]

I see. Also in the mod it's set to 0, but if you say that they never return also set it to 1, in my opinion it means that it's a bug. A really bad bug: I can undestand that in LSA two battlegroups can stay in one map, so the "allied map where Bg can retreat it's already occupied, then disband" issue it doesn't occur in LSA, but three or more Bgs they can't stay in a map and, more important, border maps and big supply depot maps in this way condemn BGs to never return.

Speaking about your pool, in my opinion morale it's a key option so I vote morale on.

Drizzt

[crewman]

Yes, in 7.3 recycle BG's is set to "0". I did testing with it enabled "1" and still found that disbanded BG's didn't return. Perhaps I'm wrong?
But, I set it back to "0" ... in case it causes some unknown problem set at "1" that I'm unaware of.

And yes, a map can hold only two BG's. Also, when Morale is "on" ... and a BG is disbanded, it still needs friendly map connection (not shared occupation map)  to retreat to ... otherwise it doesn't return.

So, if you advance to new map via VL's ... but didn't capture all territory of previous map, then you create chance of being disbanded and not returning. And with Morale "on" ... its easier for this to happen in this situation, cause a morale break and only one or two VL's secured on new map ... will cause routing and disband.

[Drizzt]

I have verified this thing creating a scenario that has helped me to test it in a quick way: you have reason, they never return. I have also tried to add two TLD Campaign.txt strings about this matter, but they don't work. Really a bad bug that it changes completely the gameplay.

Drizzt

[crewman]

Thanks for testing and verifying that Drizzt.
Maybe it's not a bug, but by design that the game developers want it like that.

But, it's not a big deal ... you just hv to be extra careful with strategic moves, etc.

[Drizzt]

[Drizzt]

Hi, crewman,

My example is wrong: I have tested now that in that case Bgs disbanded can return (I mean when they entering in a map with their own big supply depot on it and they are forced to disband). So I think that the game is coded in a "special way" (only cut off towards supply route Battlegroups never return). Not a good thing anyway, but less worse than I supposed.

Drizzt

[crewman]

hey Drizzt,
interesting test ... never thought of that one.
Also, Matrix has removed options in various versions ... for example: removed static BG's after LSA.
And since LSA stock has recycle BG's not returning as default ... it wouldn't surprise me if that option was removed. Just a guess though. I'd prefer to hv that option available.

The other question I haven't tested ... is whether or not a percentage of the units from a disbanded BG are put into other BG's of its parent formation. If true, that would be an ok compromise.

[crewman]

I can think of a loop hole with recycled BG's.
Player A moves all BG's to front line, but enemy gets break through and heads for depot. Player A disbands a front line BG and it gets airlift to depot 4 or 5 maps back next day ... and defends approach of Player B's break through.

[stiener]

Hi Gents

I have answers to a couple of your questions and guess's. I thought you and I, crewman, had discussed some of these issues ;-)

1] in the stock LSA, disbanded BG's DONT COME BACK. stock LSA is meant to be played with morale ON for this reason. IF a BG RETREATS OFF THE STRATIGIC MAP ...as opposed to an adjacent map...they will try to re enter at 6:00 during the following strategic turn.

2] yes it doesn't work in the mod LSA GJS either. Cathartes is the man to ask about this. PM him and ask him about it. it may be easier to reach him at matrix site tho
   its my understanding that Cathartes wanted disbanded BG's to come back in the LSA GJS mod but something didn't work right. he also wanted some allied BG's to have a reinforce button...I believe it was going to be the independent allied tank brigades and that also doesn't work for some reason....but I think he has an explanation for this.

3] all the beach maps and the next inland maps have static ost troops on them. if an allied BG breaks thru the beach map....leaving some germans troops there IE: its still enemy held ..... into the next inland map, the allies are still fighting very poor static ost troops. the chance of the attacking allied BG getting pushed back off the map are ZERO. so the allied player at this point in the GC doesn't have to worry about getting disbanded and losing his BG.

4] disbanded BG's have SOME of there men and equipment absorbed into a friendly BG in the same map or area that the BG was disbanded as long as they are under the same parent formation, so not all the men and equipment is lost. [ that's in the LSA manual ]  theres your compromise crewman and ive seen it on both allies and german in this mod.

5] once inland and the allies have 1, 2 , or 3 maps behind them....one has to manage there BG's...make sure they have a map to retreat to that doesn't have an enemy BG fighting on it or too many allied BG's occupying it. simple logistic IMO.

6] in GWTC disbanded BG's DO come back.

7] there is a way to limit the morale loss issue for the allies as they fight the static BG's on the beach. watch the morale of the germans ...when it gets low...stop killing germans and concentrate on sitting on the exit VL's with a tank or unit. if you stop killing germans then there morale wont crash and stop the battle.

is this legal???   is it fair game???   you decide        


thanks
Steiner  

[stiener]

oh ya...IMO crewman ....my intrepid and very good LSA GJS allied attacker   .... you and I discussed that you may have been able to get off 2 more of those maps in the 1st battle BUT that's the thing about wargaming....each battle can turn out different each time and its what makes these games fun and different each time we play them over and over. a little luck changes a lot of stuff in a battle. a tank gets tracked for example and your strategy is screwed for that battle. been there too many times to count.    

when we next hit those beach maps it will all be different again  
its great fun crossing swords with you bro !

im interested to see how the poll goes.

[Drizzt]

Hi Stiener,

4) This fact it saves the gameplay in LSA and in a certain sense in works like TLD: in TLD supply route cut off Bgs they lose an important amount of material (tanks/vehicles/guns) and a discreet quantity of men (they return, but surely they don't return with full forcepools). Having said this, I continue to preref Bgs that can return.
I have a question about this matter: in LSA, how it works with different kind of teams considering the numerical team limit that there is in the forcepools? I mean: in a situation when there is a disbanded battlegroup with many different teams towards the battlegroup that must absorb its teams, I think that many of these different teams will be lost (they will not be absorbed).

5) Yes, as I have tested, supply route it's the key, and a big supply depot (of its own side) it preserves a Bg even when it's forced to disband in that map with the big supply depot on it.

Drizzt

[stiener]

Hi Dizzt

all the LSA manual says is that SOME of there men and equipment absorbed into a friendly BG. ive seen this in this mode. its hard to say how much per say.....60% maybe. id say if the absorbing BG has a full numerical team limit in its forcepool then it wouldn't absorb that type of squad BUT im not sure what the numerical limit is in each case or even IF there is a numerical limit?? ive seen some BG's with ALLOT  of squads....up to 30 or more??

5] well the allies have 3 major supply depots on the beaches and ive never seen any disbanded BG appear there or on the german side in the LSA GJS mod. in the stock LSA game ive never seen a disbanded BG reappear either.
but in theory here...if a BG is disbanded it would be cut off from supply or it wouldn't have disbanded...right?

also what your seeing maybe what the LSA manual says in 1] above about retreat off the strat map?????

perhaps an e mail to Matrix steve mclair at the matrix site to see if disbanded BG's will come back if they have supply???

[Drizzt]

5) I have tweaked Campaign.txt addind two TLD strings, so this evening I will try again with the original file to confirm you the fact that they return. Anyway, of course, I have set the follow option "(0 = Never come back, 1 = Return next day)" to 1. I have tested it in this way.

I'm not sure what the manual it means with "retreat out of the stratmap" (I must read it). Anyway a disbanded battlegroup, in my opinion, it's not a retreating battlegroup. Maybe the manual it includes in this definition the disbanded Bgs on their friendly depots?

Drizzt

[Drizzt]

[Drizzt]

I  confirm my tests, I have used the mod org Campaign.txt file and, if you set the follow option "(0 = Never come back, 1 = Return next day)" to 1 instead of 0, I confirm the follow thing that I had already written:
"Bgs disbanded can return (I mean when they entering in a map with their own big supply depot on it and they are forced to disband). So I think that the game is coded in a "special way" (only cut off towards supply route Battlegroups never return). Not a good thing anyway, but less worse than I supposed. "

I specify that I have tested both 0 and 1 and setting the option to 0, of course, Bgs they never return even if they have a supply route and/or they are on their own big supply depot map.

Drizzt

P.S. Thy return next day, not next turn.

[crewman]

Hey Steiner,
Thanks for posting your info and opinions ... good stuff.
We've got some fun battles going ... and yes, LSA GJS is different and interesting every time.

LSA has some really great features:
Stacked BG's, possible two attack/move entry locations on one map at same time, scheduled reinforcement system, multiplayer connecting via TCP, optional vehicle column, static BG's, reduced accuracy of weapons when suppressed, etc.
Couple of things could hv made it better for GJS, in my opinion, ... option to control percentage of return points, and recycle BG option.
I think there are ways around these shortcomings with  other features and options available ... as you know, since you suggested some of these ideas yourself.

Was thinking ... a simple house rule could remedy a problem of a disbanded BG not returning, with Morale "off".
Under certain conditions a defender will not cause disbandment of enemy BG by control of all Victory Locations:
1. Attacking BG entering map has only one VL
2. Is first battle since attacking BG entered map

With this rule, a defender is not allowed to cause disbandment of an attacking BG by taking control of all VL's, but can cause disbandment by destroying all enemy units.
This allows the attacking BG to retreat next turn, if the entry location and/or opposing BG are deemed too difficult to sustain an attack and may result in disbandment
But if the attacking BG remains on the same map for a second battle ... then the defending BG is allowed force disbandment by taking all VL's

And thanks Drizzt for ur comments and testing ... I didn't realize a BG disbanded on its own depot could return if option is set to "1"