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Drizzt

Rep: 114.3
votes: 9


PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Reply with quote

ScnelleMeyer wrote (View Post):
German armoured car crews were issued the black panzer uniform, while half track crews would use regular fieldgrey tunics.
Looking at photos several combinations are possible in field conditions.

Soviet armoured car crews seems to have used the green regular uniform and not the dark blue tankers suit as standard.
Several photos show them using the tankers radio helmet.
https://heroesandgenerals.com/forums/topic/79855-soviet-halftrack/  

Thanks for the info!
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Sequoia

Rep: 23.8
votes: 1


PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 2:42 am Post subject: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Reply with quote

Hello:

Here a plate  depicting a BA-10 crewman
Hidden: 



Bye
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Drizzt

Rep: 114.3
votes: 9


PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2019 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Reply with quote

Sequoia wrote (View Post):
Hello:

Here a plate  depicting a BA-10 crewman
Hidden: 



Bye

Thanks for the info! This picture it confirms that soviet vehicles/armored cars crew don't wore tanks crew uniforms.
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Drizzt

Rep: 114.3
votes: 9


PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 12:43 am Post subject: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Reply with quote

We are near to the end of May. Here an exhaustive update about the progress of the mod:

Southernland has created many awesome maps in a new “Kursk style”. There are also new maps (made by him) in the old “kursk style”. New kursk style it’s more various (not only wilderness in the maps) and cool, and it’s also complementary with the old one. The new maps will be at least 30, probably few more, 18 of them already finished. There are also some custom maps deeply reworked. Some peculiar/primary maps have been made following specific requests (considering the battlefield and the terrain).
The unexpected abundance of maps (thanks Southernland!) has convinced me to extend the stratmap, considering also the fact that I had augmented the BGs to 64. I have made it having in mind the limits and the design of the original stratmap. There will be 8 new stratmap positions. 5 obtained by org stratmap positions splitted in two and 3 totally new (so, in total, maps will be 52). Two months ago I had already corrected some maps names and changed few others, so also this new work it’s respectful of the real disposition of the villages in the area in 1943. Moreover, now 3rd SS has its entry map for the first days of battle.

This kind of work has an impact in many other aspects of the game. I have already created 5 of the new stratmap areas, included destratmap maps (for the truth they are 9: one it’s a new stratmap postion; but for stratmap positions splitted in two I have been obliged also to rework the org positions). After have finished the remaining 3, there is the following work to do:
- to select and to insert the arrows of the new maps, to reposition the old arrows of the splitted (in two) maps and to renumber all the arrows.
- to create new mapnames and to rework some of the old ones
- to rework the BTDs and to make a new graphic map with the arrows links (this is just a map for reference, both for modders and players)
- to rework the BG names, the BG icons and the SE icons of the 4 changed BGs (I had already reworked BGs, but with the new stratmap positions, 4 of them have changed)
- to add the reworked stratmap in all the relative graphic files in both screen.gdg and ccimages.pix files.

Data work it’ stuck to half of the tanks/vehicles (I mean about Data), but azp files relative work is finished.

Considering the new extra work and the remaining original work (and my free time), I think I need something like two other months to release a beta. Thanks to Southernland the mod has completely changed its face, so I’m glad to do an extra work on it.

Drizzt
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GameRat

Rep: 33.1
votes: 2


PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2019 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Reply with quote

wow, really looking forward to this ... thanks to you and Southernland.

do you have any images/screenshots of some of the vehicles?
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Drizzt

Rep: 114.3
votes: 9


PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2019 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Reply with quote

GameRat wrote (View Post):
wow, really looking forward to this ... thanks to you and Southernland.

do you have any images/screenshots of some of the vehicles?


I use Waldganger original work. I have created the graphic and the Data of 3 of them (respecting the style of other tanks/vehicles) and I have added in Data few versions of them that don't need a new graphic. I have also added a gun and two aircrafts. Having said this, you can see the original work in CC5 Kursk album in combat camera.

P.S.
Azp work it means:
- creation/insertion of the things I have spoken above.
- creation/insertion of all the wrecks (they were from CC3: too small and different from tanks/vehicles).
- Creation/insertion of many shadows of the wrecks (anyway all tanks/vehicles shadows must be tested in the beta: Waldganger has used a particular and realistic way for them, but that can cause problems if it's not implemented correctly at 100%).
- Correction of all the differences in the files names (uppercase-lowercase included) between guns, shadows, tanks and wrecks to avoid game crashes, realized with a general renaming of all these files (all re-built), also to help my work in Data.


Last edited by Drizzt on Mon May 27, 2019 5:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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GameRat

Rep: 33.1
votes: 2


PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2019 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Reply with quote

Thanks, i viewed the vehicle images in combat camera ... looks good.
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Sequoia

Rep: 23.8
votes: 1


PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 3:31 am Post subject: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Reply with quote

Hello:

Good news!

About russian aircraft camouflage, there was many baseless things published in the West. This started in the Cold War when the info available was scant.
So many profiles, artwork, and scale models were based the interpretations of the b/w images without documental support.
In this context surged the interpretation that early war camo was green and brown, repeated even after the end of the Cold War. For example Flying Colors (Green & Swanborough, Salamander Books 1999) stated that the schemas was "dark green and earth brown" (names bororwed from RAF nomenclature) and that green and black was tractor paint used in a factory that previously made farm machinery.
The evidence about brown painting in Soviet made planes, it's that in 1940 the light brown was among the colors tested for aircraft camouflage. This tone was used in a scheme applied in a batch of 28 LaGG-3. Apparently was a serious candidate for inclusion in official schemes, but green and black was chosen. In July 1943 was included in the non-fighter scheme. No dark brown shade (I meaning a tone like dark earth used by RAF) was included in any official scheme, only as color for airplane oil pipes (interior components and sub-systems were color coded).
Closest thing to special camouflage in mod's timeframe and area it's a photo of a Yak-7 157 IAP 16 VA (Central Front) with a band of a clear color (claimed to be light brown) between the black and green areas.    
Contrast between colors in b/w photos varied depending of paint type and its wear, light conditions, camera setings, film used, etc.  

For German planes the ID markings were discrete for Kursk period, Fw-190, Hs-129 and Stukas had a yellow band around the fuselage close to tail unit, bow and wingtip markings only in the undersides.

I understand that this is a land wargame not a flight simulator, and that plane camo is an minor detail, sorry for my complaints.

About weapons plane weapons, What you choice for Shturmoviks? 23mm or 37mm guns, rockets, frag. bombs, PTAB?

Bye.
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qwaqwe

Rep: 23.4


PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 7:36 am Post subject: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Reply with quote

Bombs and PTAB
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ScnelleMeyer

Rep: 158.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Reply with quote

I found this link and thought it might be of interest:
A very detailed review and visual examination of the battle of Prokhor?ovka using period Luftwaffe aerial photographs and other documents.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/16161262.2019.1606545?fbclid=IwAR0lXYYhBD_pCOFCLMNWRy3ODIGkbonC73PE1DWxikmPZdEBz9KBSogwSf8&
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ScnelleMeyer

Rep: 158.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Reply with quote

I found this link and thought it might be of interest:
A very detailed review and visual examination of the battle of Prokhor?ovka using period Luftwaffe aerial photographs and other documents.

Prokhorovka
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Drizzt

Rep: 114.3
votes: 9


PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 1:38 pm Post subject: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Reply with quote

Sequoia wrote (View Post):
Hello:

Good news!

About russian aircraft camouflage, there was many baseless things published in the West. This started in the Cold War when the info available was scant.
So many profiles, artwork, and scale models were based the interpretations of the b/w images without documental support.
In this context surged the interpretation that early war camo was green and brown, repeated even after the end of the Cold War. For example Flying Colors (Green & Swanborough, Salamander Books 1999) stated that the schemas was "dark green and earth brown" (names bororwed from RAF nomenclature) and that green and black was tractor paint used in a factory that previously made farm machinery.
The evidence about brown painting in Soviet made planes, it's that in 1940 the light brown was among the colors tested for aircraft camouflage. This tone was used in a scheme applied in a batch of 28 LaGG-3. Apparently was a serious candidate for inclusion in official schemes, but green and black was chosen. In July 1943 was included in the non-fighter scheme. No dark brown shade (I meaning a tone like dark earth used by RAF) was included in any official scheme, only as color for airplane oil pipes (interior components and sub-systems were color coded).
Closest thing to special camouflage in mod's timeframe and area it's a photo of a Yak-7 157 IAP 16 VA (Central Front) with a band of a clear color (claimed to be light brown) between the black and green areas.    
Contrast between colors in b/w photos varied depending of paint type and its wear, light conditions, camera setings, film used, etc.  

For German planes the ID markings were discrete for Kursk period, Fw-190, Hs-129 and Stukas had a yellow band around the fuselage close to tail unit, bow and wingtip markings only in the undersides.

I understand that this is a land wargame not a flight simulator, and that plane camo is an minor detail, sorry for my complaints.

About weapons plane weapons, What you choice for Shturmoviks? 23mm or 37mm guns, rockets, frag. bombs, PTAB?

Bye.


Hi, thanks for the info and for the time you have dedicated to this research. What I want underline, is that the sources I have read never report that green-brown was an official scheme, but a regional camouflage, in a way not different to the white paint on the aircrafts in winter. "Regional" it refers to the climatic conditions and the terrain. These regional camouflages were unofficial. Having said this, I can't know in an empiric way how much were diffused/really used. You seem ported to think that this is a fake info distorced in the years for the reasons you have explained, but without russian documents/witness how can I know where is the truth?

IL-2 armament I have chosen: Vya-23mm, ShKAS 7.62mm, PTAB, RS-82 Raketa (raketa=rockets: it's an optional armament).

EDIT: thanks ScnelleMeyer for the link! I will take a look in the following days. (I have seen your link after that I have written this post)
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Sequoia

Rep: 23.8
votes: 1


PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 4:13 am Post subject: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Reply with quote

Hello:

About: IL-2 Vya-23 and NS-37 armed were present at Kursk,but NS-37 armed IL-2 had limited bomb/rocket load. The most common type is Vya-23 armed. Kursk was the debut of PTAB. I asked because I not aware of eventual game limitations.

About: Camo, due to missinfortation I bit sceptic. My best argument it's what paints were available. Dark Brown paint came only in gloss variety, not matt. Gloss paint used in interior parts made easier the grouncrew's job, and it´s fine for markings (Red Stars, unit markings, plane numbers) but bad for camouflage. Camouflage paint must be Matte to avoid light reflexion revealing the plane location. At the start of Barbarossa the soviet planes were painted in glossy paints (to avoid accidents), with terrible consecuences.
I find a early 1943 field aircraft repair manual in PDF with OCR, so I could use a traslate tool, contains a list with a total of 32 types of coatings including paints for exterior surfaces, for interiors, non permanent white paint for winter camo, primers, solvents and putty, (some colors come in 2 paint types, one for non metallic surfaces and primed metal, and other for non primed metal). Only brown paint for use in fuel tanks and oil pipes. In other sources confirmed that the brown paint was glossy so no suitable for camo.

My reasoning is no appropiate dark brown paint for camo purposes , no dark brown and green painted planes.

But feel free for choice the scheme that you believe is apropiate!

As you can see I'm a WW2 aviation fan!

Bye.
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Sequoia

Rep: 23.8
votes: 1


PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:48 pm Post subject: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Reply with quote

Hello:

About the camo, a dark brown like the RAF dark earth is improbable as stated above, but light brown is another story. Light brown was tested in 1940, but the soviets chosed green & black in 1941, however in 1943 (after Kursk) become a standard color for the new camo schemes. An exceptional order was issued to mix paints following strict instructions to obtain the new colors, until the new paints were available, but not in the case of light brown. Also the place in the numbering secuence for the light brown paint was lower than the official 1941 colors, it's a indication that was seriously considerd as standard color just before the war.
In my opinion the use of light brown in aircraft sent to front to test camos in field conditions or as non standard camo is plausible.

Another paint related theme, the development of green paints used in aircrafts was related to army paints, the green paint tested in 1940 was the same paint for AFV. So green aviation paint had a very close shade to AFV green paint.

Bye.
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Drizzt

Rep: 114.3
votes: 9


PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:08 pm Post subject: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Reply with quote

Sequoia wrote (View Post):
Hello:
About the camo, a dark brown like the RAF dark earth is improbable as stated above, but light brown is another story. Light brown was tested in 1940, but the soviets chosed green & black in 1941, however in 1943 (after Kursk) become a standard color for the new camo schemes. An exceptional order was issued to mix paints following strict instructions to obtain the new colors, until the new paints were available, but not in the case of light brown. Also the place in the numbering secuence for the light brown paint was lower than the official 1941 colors, it's a indication that was seriously considerd as standard color just before the war.
In my opinion the use of light brown in aircraft sent to front to test camos in field conditions or as non standard camo is plausible.
Another paint related theme, the development of green paints used in aircrafts was related to army paints, the green paint tested in 1940 was the same paint for AFV. So green aviation paint had a very close shade to AFV green paint.
Bye.

Excellent news, since I was talking about light brown: I was seriously considering changing the brown to black, but with this information there is no longer any need for it.

Thanks for your research and your help!
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Schmal_Turm

Rep: 44.3
votes: 1


PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:53 pm Post subject: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Reply with quote

Don't wish to hurry things and forget the Bloody First, but I am more interested in the progress of the Kursk mod???


"No plan ever survives first contact with the enemy." Moltke
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Drizzt

Rep: 114.3
votes: 9


PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Reply with quote

End of July update

Due to personal/work commitments and other technical issues concerning the mod (which I will talk about shortly) I failed to comply with the roadmap. I mean that the mod is not yet finished, but the work on it has proceeded at a good pace anyway and it does not miss much at the conclusion.
Here are the details of what has been done and what remains to do:

- Stratmap.txt slowed my work due the fact that many of the coordinates extracted from the original .exe kursk file were the default ones (CC5). So I have created many of them on my own. I must insert only the map overview coordinates. On this file all the rest has been done.
- The work on Data has continued and now I must work on the teams: I must rework all of them (in accordance with other Data files reworked by me) and add the images of the new ones. After them, I will create the forcepools.
- I have selected music, sounds, and video files for the mod: I have not yet worked on them, but for sure it will be not a long work. EDIT: about "sounds" I mean soldiers voices. The main sound file it's ready: it had been already deeply reworked by me while I was working on weapons Data.
- Files for “Extras” folder has been created, just one of them has not been yet made.
- Of course I still have to create battles, operations and Campaigns , but I have already collected info about them.
- The final number of maps in the mod will be 54, so 10 more than the original plan. All the variegated work to expand the maps in the mod from 44 to 54 has been finished (it has been a time consuming work).
- About maps, thanks to the big (about quantity) and awesome (about quality) work of Southernland, and thanks to the help in coding some maps provided by Aetius (at the end of his work will be 4-5, I think), the final count of maps will be the following:
- 36 new maps created by Southernland, both in old and new kursk style.
- 3 org COI maps enlarged and updated (updated = lightly reworked to ensure uniformity with the other maps of the mod)
- 1 org CC3 map reworked (to adapt it to the needs of the mod) and updated.
- 2 custom maps reworked and updated.
- 12 custom maps updated.  
The rework and update works have been made always by Southernland. At this moment, just 2 new maps, 4 custom maps and 1 COI map are not yet completed, so they remain only 7 maps to finish: the work on the maps it's almost finished.
- About the 54 btd maps files (the only maps files of my competence), they are all half-finished: I have created the entry and exit Vls for all of them, but I must finish them and compile the word file with the victory points.

This time I prefer don't give a release date, considering I don't have respected the first one, but for sure the work it's in a real advanced state and my motivation to finish it it's of course intact.
That’s all for now.

Drizzt
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Schmal_Turm

Rep: 44.3
votes: 1


PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:31 am Post subject: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Reply with quote

Drizzt, sounds great, and thanks for all your hard work, and to all the maps created by Southernland and maps provided by Aetius.


"No plan ever survives first contact with the enemy." Moltke
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Uberdave

Rep: 26.9


PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:26 am Post subject: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Reply with quote

Are you aiming to create a historical mod or a just-for-fun game with arcade style gameplay?

If 'yes'. the how do you plan to recreate one of the largest tank battles in history on a dated simulation that was solely created for infantry:infantry combat with light support in close (under 300 meter) engagements?

People will play it and enjoy it, and I'm sure you will do excellent work, Drizzt. Unfortunately, it won't be 'Close Combat' for me.
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Drizzt

Rep: 114.3
votes: 9


PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:05 am Post subject: Re: Working on TLD Kursk mod Reply with quote

Uberdave wrote (View Post):
Are you aiming to create a historical mod or a just-for-fun game with arcade style gameplay?

If 'yes'. the how do you plan to recreate one of the largest tank battles in history on a dated simulation that was solely created for infantry:infantry combat with light support in close (under 300 meter) engagements?

People will play it and enjoy it, and I'm sure you will do excellent work, Drizzt. Unfortunately, it won't be 'Close Combat' for me.

I will recreate the right proportions with the reinforcement system. This is true in particular for russians; germans have almost all the BGs there; In fact, the problem is that it's impossible to insert all the Bgs due to the game engine limitation. The russian Bgs are many more than the german ones (also) because their structure is more "light" (a russian regiment/division has less number of men and tanks/vehicles of the german one). Moreover, in this battle there was also a russian superiority in numbers.

About the rest, you have a superficial knowledge of this battle:
1) It's mainly, really mainly, a biggest infantry battle. And more in general, during all the days of the battle it's a battle of attrition (not conceived as such, but in fact has become such for several reasons).
2) There aren't "the largest tank battles in history", there is a single huge tank battle in a specific timeline and sector of the battle. Among other things, many historians have downgraded this huge tank battle to the second one more larger in history.

Having said this, of course the game engine limitations are always present.

EDIT: Obviously, inside the battle of Kursk there were also many battles that involved tanks against tanks and tanks against infantry/AT guns, but in a numerical proportion very similar to many other battles of WW2 (and yes, in the mod there will be many Bgs with tanks). When I wrote the post I took it for granted, but better to specify it.
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