Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:31 pm Post subject: MarkIIIL vs T34...Three blown T34s in a raw..
I've been experiencing that the small caliber 50mm L60 gun of the PzIII is better than the PZIVG's 75mm L48 gun against hard targets like T34 and KV1.
Last night my microcontrolled PzIII knocked out 3 t34s in a raw less than a minute. I came out of the forest and first 2 of the shots are sideshots and the last one is on the front..I achieved this with run-stop-fire. At the edge of the forest I did the first shot, they were unaware of me..first T34 knocked out..All 2 T34s fired at me but I was on the move, they missed. When they were reloading, I stopped and fired, second one blown.Then moved again, the last one turned on me with the hull, fired again and missed, then I stop and fired, it was a direct hit from the front.. 3 shots, 3 success, it was quiet a view.I could never do it with a PzIVG, cause it's slower and somewhat it's aim is worse even with experienced crew.
The game is a bit wierd. The last time I looked 1 T-34 shot 3 mark III's. But then again i read that that german AT weapon (I think that rifle don't know the name) penetrated IS-1's armor on a weak spot somwhere on the lower hull. So life too has its strange moments. And as Antifa said a lot of the game is pure chance.
Last edited by Arg0n on Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
well i suppose the reason that u got so lucky with ur tank 3 shots 3 kills is most likely because u were shooting at T34 ober. 42's - the significantly weaker ones with poor optics... had they been T34 ober. 43's... you most likely would not have destroyed even one of them.
However, if my assumption is incorrect and they were ober. '43s then .... wow that is a pretty big quirk! anyways good hunting[/b]
A question: what are optics needed for? the most conflict in CC range from about 50 to 500, and in Stal. the ranges are about 200m so the hits are mostly accurate. Even Stevie Wonder (no offense to blind people) could hit a tank from 200m.
PS. I am a flexibile man so correct me if I am wrong.
One thing sure is that the tank warfare in Close Combat series depends on luck and chance to some degree. It is Close Combat that even Stuart can blow away King tiger.
Yes, you need some luck, but Cronus has a point, it is easier to kill any T-34 with the PzIIIJ than with the PzIVG in Stalingrad mod.
Don't know why, but we came to the same conclusion.
They were battle hardened T34 obr.42s...Not the rookie ones, they reacted pretty well but I was luckier and faster.
Point is this. Why the small caliber L60 is better than 75mm long barreled L48?? This is not one occasion, I've been experiencing this all the time.
When your PzIVG fires a AP on a T34, it almost always immobilize or damage it but not kill it. But when an experienced PZIII crew fires on T34 from even distances like 500m, it almost always kills it at the first shot, if not, PzIIIJs fast reloading time is the reason of a death T34.
I have a PzIIIJ with 8 hard target credits, two of them are KV1s. Never a PzIVG could achieve that score.
Yes that's fine n' all, but as I read the T-34 could penetrate 60 mm from 1Km with the standard APHE shell and Pz III had 50 mm in the front. go to http://www.wwiivehicles.com/ and check the data. There is always some sort of a mistake in CC games, but I think that is a "disease" native to most CC games. See my thread Why the Panther is so stong? There are dumb situations where Mk IVH kicks the living sh** out of IS-2! But then again I am always complaining so...
Yes that's fine n' all, but as I read the T-34 could penetrate 60 mm from 1Km with the standard APHE shell and Pz III had 50 mm in the front
60mm vs what kind of armor plate? which PzIII had 50mm frontal armor? What type of armor PzIII had?
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There are dumb situations where Mk IVH kicks the living sh** out of IS-2
so what? why PzIVH couldn't pen. JS-2? I'd say at ranges closer than 500m JS-2 had no chances vs PzIVH(only if JS hit PzIVH at first shot).
1) PzIII was always better armored than PzIV as it was supposed to fight vs tanx(by german doctrine) and PzIV was for inf support role.
2)5cm KwK39 PzGren40 (APCR) could pen 151mm@100m/90deg(147mm@100m/90deg for KwK40(APCR)) but lacked AP power at further ranges 84mm@500m/90deg (KwK40=126mm@500m/90deg). So at ranges up to 200-300m KwK39/Pak38 can KO anything.
Each german tank have 8 SP(APCR) shells in Stal.
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it is easier to kill any T-34 with the PzIIIJ than with the PzIVG in Stalingrad mod
yes at ranges up to 200-300m. As it has better AP perfomance and better ROF.
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Point is this. Why the small caliber L60 is better than 75mm long barreled L48
Dima, PzKpfw III Ausf J, SdKfz 141/1 had 50 mm of homogenous steel armor.
And penetration tables are for for homogenous steel armor at 90 degrees.
About the second thing you are right, but still just because you say something does not mean it's correct. As far as I'm informed the above stats are correct.
PS. Dima if I'm wrong correct me again and give me some of your history resources.
I am a polite man and if I ever insult anyone with my stubborn personality I apologise.
Dima, PzKpfw III Ausf J, SdKfz 141/1 had 50 mm of homogenous steel armor.
1)PzIIIJ had FH(face-hardened) armor plates for most parts that resisted much better vs APHE than RHA(rolled hmogenous armor).That is represented in Stalingrad.
Why u think brits removed HE fillers even from US 75mm shells and no british AP had HE filler.
2)since spring 1942 PzIIIJ:
a)20mm FHA plate was added to high front hull plate(70mm FHA total).
b)20mm FHA plate was added to frontal turret(almost 70mm FHA total).
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And penetration tables are for for homogenous steel armor at 90 degrees.
60mm pen. at 1000m/90deg is incorrect for F-34 gun and BR-350B shell.
guaranteed pen. at 1000m/90 was 68mm. Initial pen. was 78mm.
Stalingrad uses average pen. 73mm@1000m.
Thanks for the correction Dima, BTW do you have some link about the FH armor plates.
And I was wrong coz' I didn't use the data from Russian Battlefield.
Maybe my stats are a bit pre-spring 1942, but it says the Ausf. J had 50 mm.
PS do you know in what kind of armor was Molybdenum (Mo) used in the armor plates of German tanks?
Arg0n.
Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:32 pm Post subject: Ohh yes
Hello men, Im back.
I just got ADSL, and im now DL map by map, (my ADSL disconects...) and im really look forward to try this mod. I really excited to see the huge reserch work done by Dima.adb and the work of grapix.crew.
All this talk here make me even more eager to get the DL..
Optics/sights in General
Optics, vs No-optics at 200 meter would not make any differance, in some situations as fog, bad lights, bad weather at close ranges open sight is supperior, and in some situations no differance.
At ranges over some 400 meters the situation changes, and optics is preferd.
But, differance betwen good optics, vs avarage optics in good lightning situation is non at all. The differance comes in lowlight,bad contrast situations and such.
BTW do you have some link about the FH armor plates
try to search in the net or get book.
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PS do you know in what kind of armor was Molybdenum (Mo) used in the armor plates of German tanks
not v sure but it seems like RHA plates used for Panther and Tiger1 had Molybdenym(at least till spring 1944).
TigerII RHA didn't have it. Vanadium was used instead.
Yes I read the article: "Was King Tiger really king" and it seems that Vanadium made it brittle, 122 shots (HE I think) caused armor cracking. but this is off topic. Yes I remember I forgot to tell that sometimes I've seen 88 mm L/71 in the game bounce off a T-34's armor from about 100m so it's a bit wierd.
Comments any one?
Yes I remember I forgot to tell that sometimes I've seen 88 mm L/71 in the game bounce off a T-34's armor from about 100m so it's a bit wierd.
Comments any one?
No but other mods, CC3, but some wierd s*** in Stal too.
Don't worry Dima I think it's the game, not the mod.
Let me simplify the game is great, but everything has it's own problems, and the game can sometimes to "miracles" out of realism (lucky shots, elite AT troops fleeing when they have to assault a tank...) do you understand?
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In August of 2004, Zappi, Homba, Bambam887, RedScorpion and MOOXE all pitched
in to create this Close Combat site. I would to thank all the people who have visited
and found this site to thier liking. I hope you had time to check out some
of the great Close Combat mods and our forums. I'd also like to thank
all the members of our volunteer staff that have helped over
the years, and all our users that contributed to this site!
anyways good hunting[/b]
