Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:46 am Post subject: Information regarding the new units for this mod.
Hey guys,
Is there anywhere that I can get information on the new units available in the Karelia 2 mod? My Russian and Finnish are a little off these days, so I would like to know the meanings behind many of the names given to the units in the mod and their various purposes/strengths. I would especially like to know how the artillery support unit works. I know I'm doing something wrong, because that unit doesn't work like the old-school aritillery untis which I'm used to. Any help would be much appreciated.
I would give some feedback on the mod, but I haven't played it much because of my lack of understanding. One thing's for sure - the maps look fantastic!
Well, I can help you with some of the Finnish unit names being a Finn myself.
I have just started the GC as the Finns and so I'm also in the process of getting to know the units.
Something to start:
Komentoryhmä = literally Command Squad (needs to be specified which is the Company command and which is the Platoon command)
Kivääriryhmä = lit. Rifle Squad (should be your regular Infantry Squad as it is just Infantry)
Pikakivääriryhmä = lit. LMG Squad (this means in Finnish a separate LMG team not a Squad as there are none. In this mod this squad is Medium Infantry Squad but is just your usual Infantry)
Töpinä = Cooks & Clerks (2nd Line Infantry however in Finland these soldiers are fully trained as Riflemen. Finnish Army gives basic infantry training in Army, Navy and Air Force even today)
Norsupyssyryhmä = lit. Elephant Gun Squad (should be named as Pst.kivääriryhmä, notice the right spelling as it's not spelled Norsypussy; AT rifle team)
Räjähteet = lit. Explosives (little misleading as these are your regular pioneers/engineers from the regiment's Pioneer Company)
Tarkka-ampuja = lit. Sharpshooter (notice right spelling! Should be called simply a sniper)
Tykistöryhmä = lit. Artillery Group (A false and misleading name as it should be Tulenjohtoryhmä = Art. Spotter team)
Panssarikauhuryhmä = lit. Panzerschreck team (A better name should be Pstryhmä = AT team)
Partio = lit. Patrol (Should be called as Recon Patrol/Team)
Jääkäri = lit. Jäger or Jaeger (Bicycle or Motorized Light Infantry. Every Finnish company had a platoon and these were combined into a Jager Company on a regimental level. Hard hitting and mobile, trained to fight like Panzergrenadiers)
Hope this helps as I'm in the learning process too. If you need some links just ask but I'm afraid there are not many English sites concerning Finnish wars.
This is the first time I post on this forum. My questions have usually been already asked and answered and I haven't had anything constructive to add. However now I have something on my mind that I haven't been able to find answer to. I think it fits under this new units topic.
There are Soviet units that are abbreviated Ur: Ur 17 and Ur 22. What is the Ur short from? They have flamer tanks, assault guns and pioneer/engineer kind of units so I thought they are some kind of "siege units".
I couldn't find the answer from internet, I think my fathers books could reveal the answer but I'm going to visit him after two weeks so I wish you guys could help me. This have been puzzling me since last weekend when I started playing this mod.
From what I've experienced this is a great mod. Mistakes what I've spotted are some Finnish unit names and it's understandable, it isn't easy to work with Finnish words if you're not fluent with it. Great maps, forces are balanced (I've only played against computer but I've been CC fan long enough to tell... I think ), and haven't found any bugs. Thank you very much.
ur - strongpoint region.It was supposed to be a kind of enginner-assault battlegroup but maybe i am wrong.
Sorry for misstakes on Finnish names (and i even asked my Finnish workmates )...will try to update it later.Maybe you could correct them and post them here?
Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:04 pm Post subject: About the Units and mapnames...
Hej på dig, Mats!
Am I correct that this mod is still a beta?
The maps are gorgeous and I think that for the first time the Finnish terrain has been modelled correctly although there are spelling mistakes in some of the map names and some have their Swedish names (the terrain was a nightmare for the Soviets).
About the units:
I've noticed that the modmakers have gone a bit overboard in the past with "the exotic" Finnish units and there have pretty clear mistakes with the unit names and unit compositions thus creating redundant teams in the battlegroups. But I like your latest name suggestions.
You don't necessarily have to change all of those names but mainly correct the spelling of some units like: (key => as should be)
Kivääriymä => Kivääriryhmä (notice that the Finnish word ryhmä means both Squad and team but there's a difference right?).
Sotasalis => Sotasaalis (warbooty; however not all Finn equipment was warbooty).
Panssarikohtaus translates as Panzermeeting??? so that doesn't mean anything in Finnish. I guess you mean Panssarintorjuntaryhmä = Pstryhmä = AT Team or AT Infantry? (Finnish Army is still crazy with all these abbreviations!!)
A Tank leader would be better named like "Komentovaunu".
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BG compositions: (I've only played with the Finnish front line units so I'm into turn 2 of GC. That means I haven't checked all the Finn BGs)
A normal Finnish Division (of 41-45 era) consisted of:
- 3 Infantry regiments (each battalion had a machine gun company)
- Field Artillery regiment
- Heavy Artillery battalion
- Jäger battalion or a Light Detachment
- HQ battalion
- Engineer battalion or company
- Truck company for transporting stuff
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some unit name suggestions (I don't know if they're feasible knowing the the limits of the game but here we go):
Partio: A recon party on a mission would be called a patrol ie. "They're on patrol or patrolling". The scouts or recon teams usually come from the light detachment and ARE HANDPICKED men. So a proper name could be like "Tiedustelijat" = "Scouts" or "Recon Team" of 4-5 men (Long range patrols would be 8 to 12 men).
LMG Squad: There are no such things as LMG Squads in Finnish army unless they're LMG teams (2-4 men). So a infantry squad possessing a LMG (Lahti or DP) is just ordinary infantry having a squad weapon. In game terms this could be medium infantry but for the moment I don't have a proper Finnish name for it.
Sotka and Sturmi are much better names than the regular tank names.
Räjähteet: Pioneer or Engineer squad armed with satchel charges, dynamite and grenade bundles.
Jääkäri: The Jägers or Jaegers of the Finnish army (the name means hunter, chasseur) origins from a Finn volunteer unit of Jäger Battalion 27 (Royal Prussian) which was trained by the Germans during WWI and fought in the Eastern Front. They're not Elites as such but a crack units. Elites would be our Border Guards (Rajajääkäri) who are still trained to fight as guerillas. Finnish Jägers of WWII (2 Brigades, some independent battalions and the rest in Divisions) were light infantry riding bicycles or trucks/tanks in the similar role as German Panzergrenadiers. While being light infantry they were heavily armed capable of knocking out tanks and fortified positions. Really ruthless men in offense. The sole Finnish Armored Division was extremely well trained with co-operating tanks and jägers (that's why they were able to beat better equipped and more numerous Russians).
Täydennysmiehet: Your normal replacements including new recruits and veterans returning from homeleaves and hospitals. No need to include separate replacement AT teams or repacement jägers as these would be redundant.
Rynnäkkörymiehet: Should be spelled as "Rynnäkköryhmä = Assault Squad". No such team or squad existed as these squads were ad hoc teams for a certain purpose assembled from the companies. However in game terms this is your regular heavy infantry.
DP: The Soviet Degtrayev is classed in Finland as a LMG = Pikakivääri. These should be in medium and heavy squads and with jägers. A LMG team (2-3 men) is a good fire support team.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some final notes:
I know that several funny details derive from older mods and some foreign misconceptions concerning Finnish army but bear with me.
Suomi smgs were issued larger numbers to the Finn infantry squads (2-3/squad concerning their role as the weapon was literally a meat cutter).
Molotov cocktails are a thing of the past. There should be some but these were not the main infantry close AT weapon. Arm squads with some but add Panzerfausts, AT mines but especially satchel charges and grenade bundles (remember the Soviet tank losses were "astronomical").
When the Soviet summer offensive began the Finnish units were at full strenght and were not inexperienced while they trained new age classes to the ranks. Although the Isthmus front was "quiet" there was patrolling and sniper activity which kept the men busy.
I noticed that you have given Finnish infantry unit the lowest speed ability. We weren't the most motorised army but we were extremely able to quickly bring units from different sectors to counter breakthroughs and such if there was a need.
I guess the low strenght levels of the front line units simulate the heavy Soviet bombardments and air attacks so that facilitates in game terms the Soviet breakthroughs of the first week.
Have you somehow modelled the Finnish artillery which excellent performance broke the backs of most Soviet attacks before they even began. And the German Air Group "Kuhlmey" was an excellent tankhunting unit as they are remembered warmly in our military history.
Hope these help some. If you need other info just ask!!
Many thanks for all this info!!!! Yes, it is a kind of beta because my computer crashed before all of the testplay was done I thought it would be nice for the community to play it anyway.
I think you are right about that many of the unit names is taken from older mods and i must confess that i thought they were the right ones.I am sure of that i will start to change the datas after this.
The molotov units of the 10th Division was made because in the beginning they had no AT weapons at all and their low morale and numbers was my way to show their breakdown in the beginning of the Russian offensive (same is with the 20th Brigade)Making a mod for CC5 is walking on a thin line,make it 100% historical and playable, that is not easy..Same is with the Panzerschrecks, from my sources the Finns didnt get any until mid June but i had to give them some, to stop the Russian armour.
I am happy for all this feedback and if you see anything else let me know!!
Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 2:12 am Post subject: mmm
what about a english names list
for me very frustrating i have to check 20 squads and there weapons available to them to find out what they really r.
Forget words,actions will show your true ambitions!The Battlefield,In many cases, the terrain of a battlefield can be the best resource a commander has. A clump of trees, an abandoned house, or a drainage ditch can all be powerful tools in the right hands
Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: About the Units and mapnames...
AirdefMike wrote:
Hej på dig, Mats!
Am I correct that this mod is still a beta?
The maps are gorgeous and I think that for the first time the Finnish terrain has been modelled correctly although there are spelling mistakes in some of the map names and some have their Swedish names (the terrain was a nightmare for the Soviets).
About the units:
I've noticed that the modmakers have gone a bit overboard in the past with "the exotic" Finnish units and there have pretty clear mistakes with the unit names and unit compositions thus creating redundant teams in the battlegroups. But I like your latest name suggestions.
You don't necessarily have to change all of those names but mainly correct the spelling of some units like: (key => as should be)
Kivääriymä => Kivääriryhmä (notice that the Finnish word ryhmä means both Squad and team but there's a difference right?).
Sotasalis => Sotasaalis (warbooty; however not all Finn equipment was warbooty).
Panssarikohtaus translates as Panzermeeting??? so that doesn't mean anything in Finnish. I guess you mean Panssarintorjuntaryhmä = Pstryhmä = AT Team or AT Infantry? (Finnish Army is still crazy with all these abbreviations!!)
A Tank leader would be better named like "Komentovaunu".
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BG compositions: (I've only played with the Finnish front line units so I'm into turn 2 of GC. That means I haven't checked all the Finn BGs)
A normal Finnish Division (of 41-45 era) consisted of:
- 3 Infantry regiments (each battalion had a machine gun company)
- Field Artillery regiment
- Heavy Artillery battalion
- Jäger battalion or a Light Detachment
- HQ battalion
- Engineer battalion or company
- Truck company for transporting stuff
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some unit name suggestions (I don't know if they're feasible knowing the the limits of the game but here we go):
Partio: A recon party on a mission would be called a patrol ie. "They're on patrol or patrolling". The scouts or recon teams usually come from the light detachment and ARE HANDPICKED men. So a proper name could be like "Tiedustelijat" = "Scouts" or "Recon Team" of 4-5 men (Long range patrols would be 8 to 12 men).
LMG Squad: There are no such things as LMG Squads in Finnish army unless they're LMG teams (2-4 men). So a infantry squad possessing a LMG (Lahti or DP) is just ordinary infantry having a squad weapon. In game terms this could be medium infantry but for the moment I don't have a proper Finnish name for it.
Sotka and Sturmi are much better names than the regular tank names.
Räjähteet: Pioneer or Engineer squad armed with satchel charges, dynamite and grenade bundles.
Jääkäri: The Jägers or Jaegers of the Finnish army (the name means hunter, chasseur) origins from a Finn volunteer unit of Jäger Battalion 27 (Royal Prussian) which was trained by the Germans during WWI and fought in the Eastern Front. They're not Elites as such but a crack units. Elites would be our Border Guards (Rajajääkäri) who are still trained to fight as guerillas. Finnish Jägers of WWII (2 Brigades, some independent battalions and the rest in Divisions) were light infantry riding bicycles or trucks/tanks in the similar role as German Panzergrenadiers. While being light infantry they were heavily armed capable of knocking out tanks and fortified positions. Really ruthless men in offense. The sole Finnish Armored Division was extremely well trained with co-operating tanks and jägers (that's why they were able to beat better equipped and more numerous Russians).
Täydennysmiehet: Your normal replacements including new recruits and veterans returning from homeleaves and hospitals. No need to include separate replacement AT teams or repacement jägers as these would be redundant.
Rynnäkkörymiehet: Should be spelled as "Rynnäkköryhmä = Assault Squad". No such team or squad existed as these squads were ad hoc teams for a certain purpose assembled from the companies. However in game terms this is your regular heavy infantry.
DP: The Soviet Degtrayev is classed in Finland as a LMG = Pikakivääri. These should be in medium and heavy squads and with jägers. A LMG team (2-3 men) is a good fire support team.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some final notes:
I know that several funny details derive from older mods and some foreign misconceptions concerning Finnish army but bear with me.
Suomi smgs were issued larger numbers to the Finn infantry squads (2-3/squad concerning their role as the weapon was literally a meat cutter).
Molotov cocktails are a thing of the past. There should be some but these were not the main infantry close AT weapon. Arm squads with some but add Panzerfausts, AT mines but especially satchel charges and grenade bundles (remember the Soviet tank losses were "astronomical").
When the Soviet summer offensive began the Finnish units were at full strenght and were not inexperienced while they trained new age classes to the ranks. Although the Isthmus front was "quiet" there was patrolling and sniper activity which kept the men busy.
I noticed that you have given Finnish infantry unit the lowest speed ability. We weren't the most motorised army but we were extremely able to quickly bring units from different sectors to counter breakthroughs and such if there was a need.
I guess the low strenght levels of the front line units simulate the heavy Soviet bombardments and air attacks so that facilitates in game terms the Soviet breakthroughs of the first week.
Have you somehow modelled the Finnish artillery which excellent performance broke the backs of most Soviet attacks before they even began. And the German Air Group "Kuhlmey" was an excellent tankhunting unit as they are remembered warmly in our military history.
Hope these help some. If you need other info just ask!!
Platoon Leader translates correctly as Plutoonan johtaja but that's old language. A better name would be "Joukkueen johtaja" as Platoon = Joukkue (Joukkue also means a Team in sports).
Company Command would be called ideally "Komppanian komentoryhmä."
The word "Päällystö" really means all officers and NCOs and is mostly used with the names of military schools in Finland. Tricky isn't it?
So maybe like this:
1. Kompp. Komentaja = Company or Coy Command
2. Joukkueen Johtaja = Platoon Leader
Also it needs to think through the squad sizes of these 2 teams as which is more realistic. Would it be realistic if Coy Commander had 3-4 men and Platoon Leader 4-5 men with a LMG? Platoon Leaders were in the thick of things and Coy Commanders were situated further back from the front lines.
Also I made a mistake in my previous post concerning the Finnish Division components.
There were no HQ Battalions but HQ Companies in the Divs.
HQ Company: (strenght 209 men)
- Command Squad = Komppanian Komentoryhmä
- Medic Platoon = Lääkintäjoukkue
- Signals Platoon = Viestijoukkue
- Jäger Platoon = Jääkärijoukkue
- Engineer Platoon = Pioneerijoukkue
- Delivery Platoon = Toimitusjoukkue
So Jägers could be assembled into a Company at Divisional level and not in Regimental level. My mistake sorry (I need to check atleast 2 sources before posting ) The same goes for the Engineers.
Yeah! The mistakes derive from numerous misconceptions about the "Miracle of Winter War" and so on. I love the Winter War Mod for CCV but the terrain is all wrong as it's plain flat with some silly hills and no woodcover. The Finnish rugged terrain is one reason the Soviets couldn't deploy their tanks efficiently and behind every road bend there was a Finnish ATG or a StuG/Tank waiting in ambush. Another big mistake was that the most Finnish Infantry regiments composed of Jägers!!!
The Finns had the Soviets radiocodes all broken and therefore were able to find out were the Russkies would assemble their forces before the attack. Then in these Soviet concentration areas were pounded to dust by Finn Artillery and bombers & Stukas.
So maybe add somekind of feature which shows some Soviet units on the map but I don't know if it can be done in CCV. Just an idea though.
Thanks again! I dont think that Close Combat 5 can show you the units of the opponent if you doesent play with the enemy visible.....
Dont know how long into the campaign you have got but the heavy mortar strikes is really deadly.Try to use them as soon as possible if the Russians have only reached one VL flag, i have stopped several attacks in the beginning of the battle,that way.There is Stukas as airsupport but havent got any in the GC yet, this is locked in the game and i dont know how to change it.
Thanks again! I dont think that Close Combat 5 can show you the units of the opponent if you doesent play with the enemy visible.....
Dont know how long into the campaign you have got but the heavy mortar strikes is really deadly.Try to use them as soon as possible if the Russians have only reached one VL flag, i have stopped several attacks in the beginning of the battle,that way.There is Stukas as airsupport but havent got any in the GC yet, this is locked in the game and i dont know how to change it.
Thanks Sapa. I finished the Soviet campaign yesterday and today started playing as the Finns. Trying to defend against soviet firepower is challenging and fun.
AirdefMike is really good explaining the details. One thing I have to add is that unit "Komentajaryhmä" would be "Komentoryhmä". I'm not sure how it was in the 40's though.
I dont think that Close Combat 5 can show you the units of the opponent if you doesent play with the enemy visible.....
In CC5 the Allied side in clear/good weather can see BG's behind the lines because of the air superiority they had. So the request could be done by changing the Russian side to be German and the Finish to US but this would also give the Finish the naval (in this mod artillery) support icon and better air support.
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In August of 2004, Zappi, Homba, Bambam887, RedScorpion and MOOXE all pitched
in to create this Close Combat site. I would to thank all the people who have visited
and found this site to thier liking. I hope you had time to check out some
of the great Close Combat mods and our forums. I'd also like to thank
all the members of our volunteer staff that have helped over
the years, and all our users that contributed to this site!
I thought it would be nice for the community to play it anyway.
