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Pzt_Kami

Rep: 44.2


PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 9:23 pm Post subject: Ancient World Reply with quote

Hi CC community.I know that this Site is about Close Combat and WWII.But I saw MOOXE created this section-The World at War-,and I thought the Ancient wars have its own fans.So I created this thread for those CC players who interested in Ancient era.


Women are like flowers, I appreciate their beauty and fragrance without picking them off the branch, then I continue on to the next flower


Last edited by Pzt_Kami on Wed May 17, 2006 1:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ANZAC_Lord4war

Rep: 3.5


PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 12:23 am Post subject: mmm Reply with quote

lmao


Forget words,actions will show your true ambitions!The Battlefield,In many cases, the terrain of a battlefield can be the best resource a commander has. A clump of trees, an abandoned house, or a drainage ditch can all be powerful tools in the right hands
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Polemarchos

Rep: 27.3


PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:49 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

I`m interested

culture of war analysis starts in the archaic period
thats crucial for the later development


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Pzt_Kami

Rep: 44.2


PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:40 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Polemarchos;
Polemarchos wrote:
culture of war analysis starts in the archaic period
thats crucial for the later development

Indeed ,In fact ,History of warfare born by human being birth day.Modern warfare is only a little part of the thousands of years military history ,and as you referred to,That's crucial to the later development.I created this thread for those among about 10,000 people in this forum who have interest on military history earlier than 20th century to share thier interests.But the only post posted in this forum was a "Lmao".However ,this thread is still open for those few people like you to post in it.

Thank you
-Kambiz


Women are like flowers, I appreciate their beauty and fragrance without picking them off the branch, then I continue on to the next flower
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ANZAC_Lord4war

Rep: 3.5


PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:37 pm Post subject: mmm Reply with quote

Kami
if u left ur original post as is.
they would know why. Twisted Evil


Forget words,actions will show your true ambitions!The Battlefield,In many cases, the terrain of a battlefield can be the best resource a commander has. A clump of trees, an abandoned house, or a drainage ditch can all be powerful tools in the right hands
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Pzt_Coyote

Rep: 0.1


PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:59 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Well since he edited it, the "lmao" on it's own is abit meaningless, isn't :Cool


Anyway ... I think if you want to find out how the very very first wars would have started, you have to look at chimpansees. Normally they aren't very violent, but you do have tribes that go around killing other tribes, stealing their young ones and females, basicly commiting genocide on a tiny scale.
So I guess the first wars would mainly be won by just having more "soldiers" Hence killing the men and taking the young and women for your own tribes benefit and ending your enemies bloodline. Simple tactic, but a tactic non the less imo Smile




Chef- " I just wanted to learn how to fucking cook man!"
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ANZAC_Lord4war

Rep: 3.5


PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:45 pm Post subject: mmm Reply with quote

lmao @
Quote:
So I guess the first wars would mainly be won by just having more "soldiers" Hence killing the men and taking the young and women for your own tribes benefit and ending your enemies bloodline. Simple tactic, but a tactic non the less imo Smile

have some meaning then! Laughing


Forget words,actions will show your true ambitions!The Battlefield,In many cases, the terrain of a battlefield can be the best resource a commander has. A clump of trees, an abandoned house, or a drainage ditch can all be powerful tools in the right hands
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Polemarchos

Rep: 27.3


PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:41 am Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

of course anthropologic fundaments are important but not crucial...

First recorded war: Trojan war ,mythic but useful literature.

Persian Wars: Herodotus explains that devotion towards a political system or ehtics drive people to war not agression, so in that point he is smarter than Freund with his "agressive, animalistic human nature thesis".

Coyoete: Here you have an example where a small army is victorious over a huge army. Same applies for all the battles Allexande the great fought. his army was never bigger than 30.000... The Persians sent 3 times over 100.000 against him. -> Issos, Gaugamela and so on...
(Good quote from Sin Zu: "Never advance when superiority is based on sheer numbers")

The birth of History by Herodotus leads to the next most important author of war. Thucidydes analysing the Pelloponesean Wars (yes there were more than the one for 431-404) established what we call the MILITARY HISTORY
(e.g. form of engagement, weaponary, phallaristics, dress-code, battle tactics, global strategy, military philosophy and practice.)

Kami start with those, my advice not only as Greek but as ongoing polemologists at my University. They serve as basis for everything that comes afterwards e.g. Spartans from whose deeds the idea of valour and bravery is derived and whose deeds influenced greek philosophers in athens (the losing side, thats important) to implement a military part into state theory of the polis in form of police, militia and army...

Anecdote: the word police comes from the greek word of polis, and menas nothing more than "good order".

i work on a mod for Rome total war too, concentrating on the Pelleponesean War, tons of accurate research there, check it out kami, everything on the birth of institutionalised warfare can be found there...
(if i am not wrong you are persian right? maybe you have some crucial stuff we havent found yet...otherwise enjoy the the faction descriprtions and the units plethora)

HEGEMONIA CITY STATES - TOTAL WAR MOD:
http://s11.invisionfree.com/Hegemony_City_States/index.php?


To brave men few words are as good as many
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Pzt_Coyote

Rep: 0.1


PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:57 am Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah yes offcourse, I know the greeks and persians around that era allready had very advanced tactics, had to read all about it in Latin and Ancient Greek classes, and I allways loved the mythology/history, had some great teachers who could tell the stories in great detail, just too bad we had to actually translate the stuff too lol, that wasn't my strongest point Wink

Anyway I was thinking more about the times way before that, when most humans were still nomadic tribes.

Offcourse the Spartans were indeed very mighty warrior, their whole society was based around their army. If I remember correct kids at a very young age would join the army and were involved with some (nowadays) bizar bonding, involving being send out in small groups into the country with totally nothing, they were expected to steal to survive, but if you got caught you would be punished Wink And having sex with eachother (in some cases) Laughing But homosexuality was very common with the greeks and was totally different from todays views. Alot of wealthy intellectuals had a young, physicly fit and intellectual boy next to their wife. It was seen as the ultimate status symbol.

Anyway I think the most important thing that the Spartans brought to the battlefield was incredible discipline. According to most stories, they would march in formation towards the enemy in total silence, not breaking formation at any point before or during battle, while most other armies of that time did use formations. But would start running and screaming towards the enemy for the last few hundred meters. This gave Spartans a clear advantage, cause the leadership would be able to give last second orders before battle. And also the silence and slow confident march gave most opponents the creeps offcourse, giving a big psychological blow to the enemy.
This spartan discipline was offcourse later adopted by the romans, who basicly copied everything from the greeks, most wealthy kids were raised/tought by greek teachers/nannies.

But about your annecdote, wasn't polis the word for city state?

edit: nevermind you are right, the greek were allways fond of using very general terms, being used for lots of things, good order would indeed be the most literal translation. btw policy, politics, metropolis, necropolis all are derived from it aswell Wink




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Polemarchos

Rep: 27.3


PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

exactly, you are well educated on spartan society
One thing is wrong: Homesexuality in sparta was no that huge, in athens it was.
Generally when you mean young boy by law he had to be at least 20 years old.
You became a grown up in ancient greece after you become 30 years old. So its homosexuality but not paidophilia.

Another Anecdote: The Thebans had a crack schock-infantry unit called "the sacred band". These guys had all sex with each other.the idea was that with soldiers developing a kind of love for each other would fight to the maximum to save their lives. Check the Illiad were battle often occured only to recover the body of a fallen or dead friend from the enemy. Todays comradeship is based on that ideal.

one point of greek hoplite warfare which is still important for western style armies today is:

Greek style pitched face-to-face battle on foot to the death a.k.a. Seek and Destroy

Eastern armies developed a new style of fighting with the emergence of the Hunns, who based their strategy on horse-archer-cavalry. Check the battle of Tiberas (aka Hattyn) during the crusades where the greek style fighting Western knight lost the battle and nearly all died without killing one enemy due to the horse-archers of the seldjuks.

The consequence was: West prefers face-to-face, while east specializes on hit-and-run, something you can see even in the insurgency tactics today in iraq.

Also chinese warfare is a big issue but they didnt influnce the world as much as the greeks, romans, persians or asianhordes did.

looking forward to continue this discussion.

Polemarchos, derived from Polemos(war) and archon(leader) an magistrate incorporated in the hellenic polis system by the Solon reforms around 550 BC
(Ok ok enough anacdotes now Smile )

p.s. stoneage warfare didnt come up with special issues. most crucial is still that one-mans-leadership emerged, thats the biggest contribution after athropologic development


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Pzt_Coyote

Rep: 0.1


PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:15 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Polemarchos wrote:
exactly, you are well educated on spartan society
One thing is wrong: Homesexuality in sparta was no that huge, in athens it was.
Generally when you mean young boy by law he had to be at least 20 years old.


Yeh for fighting, but basicly young boys were prepared for the army from day 1, at home they would be tought not to have fears and things like that, and from the age of 7-8 they would be put in small groups to start training and bonding, going through a whole series of tests till the age of 20 if I'm not mistaken

Polemarchos wrote:

Another Anecdote: The Thebans had a crack schock-infantry unit called "the sacred band". These guys had all sex with each other.the idea was that with soldiers developing a kind of love for each other would fight to the maximum to save their lives. Check the Illiad were battle often occured only to recover the body of a fallen or dead friend from the enemy. Todays comradeship is based on that ideal.


I might have confused the spartans with these fellows indeed.

The huns and mongol horsemen did have a big impact on tactics yes, the germans based the whole blitzkrieg idea on khan's tactics really, keep moving, avoiding to collide with heavily defended objects and rather swarm around them.




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Polemarchos

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:23 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Look, just to be exact...

At the age of three they had to be able to hold a sword, otherwise expelled or killed. spartan children lived at home until they were 6 years.

Then they moved into barranks for military training. the steal and survive stuff comes at age 18 to 20. Usually with 25 they marry a woman, but are not allowed to live with her until they are 30. Even here it was expected from them to leave the barranks at night to go sleep with their wives and then return unnoticed. Of course normal education was too an issue but they didnt concentrate on that.

Homosexuality is still an issue because as teens and for a long time of 15-20 years they dont see woman. Yet this education made them maybe the most dependable soldiers ever brought up by mankind.

Hitleryouth idea was based on that principle of forming soldiers too. and if you check battle accounts this nazi-brainwashed-children were extremly fierceful fighters.

The difference: spartans were obidient to their soceieties law by being persuaded to serve them (logos) while Hitleryouth was just instrumentalized poor souls


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Pzt_Coyote

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:26 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Polemarchos wrote:

The consequence was: West prefers face-to-face, while east specializes on hit-and-run, something you can see even in the insurgency tactics today in iraq.


Hmm I think nowadays the hit and run tactic is purely born out of having no other options, Iraq did have a huge standing army afterall. And in the west during ww2 lots of partisans and resistance fighters used the exact same hit and run tactics against the germans, simply cause that was the only option available.




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Pzt_Coyote

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:43 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Polemarchos wrote:
Look, just to be exact...

At the age of three they had to be able to hold a sword, otherwise expelled or killed. spartan children lived at home until they were 6 years.

Then they moved into barranks for military training. the steal and survive stuff comes at age 18 to 20. Usually with 25 they marry a woman, but are not allowed to live with her until they are 30. Even here it was expected from them to leave the barranks at night to go sleep with their wives and then return unnoticed. Of course normal education was too an issue but they didnt concentrate on that.

Homosexuality is still an issue because as teens and for a long time of 15-20 years they dont see woman. Yet this education made them maybe the most dependable soldiers ever brought up by mankind.

Hitleryouth idea was based on that principle of forming soldiers too. and if you check battle accounts this nazi-brainwashed-children were extremly fierceful fighters.

The difference: spartans were obidient to their soceieties law by being persuaded to serve them (logos) while Hitleryouth was just instrumentalized poor souls


Ah thanks, it's been ages since I read all that stuff. The spartans were tough bastards allright Very Happy




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Polemarchos

Rep: 27.3


PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:48 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

coyotee wrote:
Polemarchos wrote:

The consequence was: West prefers face-to-face, while east specializes on hit-and-run, something you can see even in the insurgency tactics today in iraq.


Hmm I think nowadays the hit and run tactic is purely born out of having no other options, Iraq did have a huge standing army afterall. And in the west during ww2 lots of partisans and resistance fighters used the exact same hit and run tactics against the germans, simply cause that was the only option available.


you are right...

the point is that warfare transformation lives from adaption of battleground characteristics, the freedom the enemy gives you and the limits set by the theatre... partisans of course have only a limited sphere of action and therefore are forced to skirmish.
(Resistance was too weak for more, but russians and yugoslav launched face to face offensives after 1 or 2 years of hit and run)

I mean even US uses mainly distant warfare (missiles, rockets) to lower casualties, but after that they seek to destroy the foe... Insurgents never try to use the momentum of suprise for more than hit and run..


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Pzt_Kami

Rep: 44.2


PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:58 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi mates;
Polemarchos wrote:
if i am not wrong you are persian right? maybe you have some crucial stuff we havent found yet...otherwise enjoy the the faction descriprtions and the units plethora

You used diffrent Anecdotes ,Let me give you at least a clarification : Persia is incorrect as the name of my country.The greeks called our country persia ,when iranians invaded greece at the time of Achaemenid dynasty.And it remained on Iran.Although the name of the heartland during Achaemenid empire was "Aryana" ,but it changed to Iran at the reign of Sassanians (Iran means the land of Aryans).And yes ,I am Iranian Smile

About Spartans ,Imo they are overvalued.You (Both Coyotee and Polemarchos) are well studied and probably know that Persian warriors had the same tradition as spartan had.They trained from about 7-10 years old and were skilful in combat.There was a corps of elit iranian warrior knwon as "Immortals" (Javidan in Farsi).But persians had a big shortcoming ,Their weapon's quality and thier dependance to thier commander.Otherwise they showed their own courage and combat performance in many cases. I think we should review battles like Thermopylae with more care.In Thermopylae ,Persians had to advance into wall of well and battle hardened warriors with no other strategic options(Maybe they were other options but Xerxes wasn't a real field commander as Cyrus the great and Darius the great were).Also ,In "Khashayarshan"(Its is the true name of Xerxes) army ,there were many many allied forces which were not as good as persians ,the fact should be considered.

I also like discussing on Romano-Iranian(Parthians and Sassnians) wars ,because this is a subject doesn't payed attention to it mutch.

Dear Polemarchos ,I know about your mod and checking your special thread in "twcenter.com" constantly.But I haven't seen any preview of persians in your thread there.I hope you make them as authentic as possible.

Thank you so much my friends
-Kambiz


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Polemarchos

Rep: 27.3


PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:37 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

hi Kami,

didnt wanna offend you. I know that Herodotus of harlicarnassus made up the name "persians" in order to declare to his greek readers that they had a heritage with a greek hero called "Perseus". not that truthful but he made this to make it easier for greek people to understand with whom they are dealing with.

Problem of the persian army was as you said that the polical system sending them to war was autocratic and the leaders poorly educated in generalship. greeks had the luck to be free and fought mostly in defence, which was easier. Futhermore phallanx is a wall of spear you cant don anything against without peltasts and archers.

Athanatai (immortals) were comparable to spartans, thats true but the common hoplite was superior to the rest of the sparabarra inf. Persian chariots were good, but were swept away by the cavalry revolution in the 3th century BC. But one thing you said is only partly true.
The mercenaries in the perisan army were one of the best soldiers of the time. Persians allways hired mercenaries, especially Ionian hoplites and inner asian troops. As Keegan puts it in his book the "The mask of the General" Alexanders biggest enemy in the wars against Darius were his Ionian hoplites who could block his cavalry.

Kami do you have any daty, vase and book pictures, historic accounts in english about persia that are not published in the West? Or Museum pictures of warrior statues? would help our generate accurate models for the persians.. Also we need someone who can speak sth like ancient Iranian for a possible voice mod.

cya


Yeah the Parthians are one of my favorites, especially the armoured cataphracts


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Pzt_Kami

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:57 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Polemarchos;
Forgive me for delay in response please.I had problem with my account.
Polemarchos wrote:
The mercenaries in the perisan army were one of the best soldiers of the time. Persians allways hired mercenaries, especially Ionian hoplites and inner asian troops. As Keegan puts it in his book the "The mask of the General" Alexanders biggest enemy in the wars against Darius were his Ionian hoplites who could block his cavalry

Ionians were in "Khashyarshan"(Xerxes) army as well as other good units of other nations.But Not all of them were good.The troops of some other tribes (Which I forget their name ,but if you want I will find their names) just armed with simple weapons like a helmit and a stick ,and nothing more ,and their numbers were considerable.If we want to list top three units of persian army ,it can be like this:
1-A corps of "Persian apple bearer" or "Immortals" which their number was 10,000.While even geek sources referred to their skills and bravery ,but they had weaknesses in their weapon's quality.
2-Ionian which fight like greeks.
3-Scythians(Not sure of their existence),
The rest were not capable troops.(Please note that I am talking about Xerxes reign and his invasion of greece ,Not alexander time)
Polemarchos wrote:
Kami do you have any daty, vase and book pictures, historic accounts in english about persia that are not published in the West? Or Museum pictures of warrior statues? would help our generate accurate models for the persians.

Nope ,Sorry Nothing which you don't have access to that in the west Embarassed
I have a book which have some pics on "Perspolise" ,Can it help?
Polemarchos wrote:
Also we need someone who can speak sth like ancient Iranian for a possible voice mod.

Cool ,you want to use persian voices? It's very good idea Razz Well ,the nowadays Farsi is so diffrent with its ancient ones (Especially Avestan farsi).Because of my interests ,I know a bit ancient farsi.So you can count on me Smile

Cheers
-Kambiz


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battlecat




PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:06 pm Post subject: THIS IS SPARTA ! Reply with quote

I am sure many of you have read the excellent Comic "300"; that is, if any of you are really interested in the ancient world. Here is a link to the forthcoming film about the Battle of Thermoplylae (the hot gates)

http://300themovie.warnerbros.com/
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Polemarchos

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:21 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah i am looking forward to this movie...

problem is that is totally unhistorical and additionaly comes in a non appropriate time considering int. politics...

1) Not leonidas kicks the persian delegation in the well but some youngsters.

2) historically 700 Thespians defended the rear, while 300 Spartans and 700 helots the pass.

3) no rhinocerus was ever used by the persian army...and so on

4) the persians are pictured like beasts, inhuman and megalomanic...

Miller havent read Herodot he based his whole comic on the movie he saw a child called the 300 hundered spartans, which itself was nice but unhistorical.
Somehow he manged to make his version less historical.

Its fiction, i know and i think worth seeing but its holywoodcrap considering education, while on the other hand Sin city technique looks awesome...

After March 2007 we can judge for real.


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