Ohhh,you have a plan "Stalingrad: Operation Circle"!?
Super!!
What is "Operation Circle"?
Sorry,I lack knowledge of this operation.
It is simply the last part of the battle, between january 10th and February 2nd, 1943, when the Red Army destroyed the encircled 6th Army in the Kessel (plus 2 romanian divisions)
I think the main problem with a Kessel II covering 10. Jan 1943 - 2 feb. 1943 will be th frustration for the German player to play it online. Historically ammo has dropped below 25%, no arty available, no fuel for tanks, not many tanks either, decimated battlegroups.
Other major issues or "balancing" problems:
1) Circle operation supply depot problem in CC5
2) Pitomnik airport fell on the 16th. I suppose it will be in the Front from day 1 or 2, causing the german player to have a supply problem for day one on.
3) Probably a AI vs. human mod, not suitable for h2h?
4) Moral of the Germans has to be medium (low due to exhaustion, high due to fanatism and stand firm orders)
5) German Panzerforce and AT ammo approaching nil, will it make to easy for a Russian player to slice through the kessel.
6) Russian will need supply depots on both ends of the campaign map.
7) German movement capabilities very low, so no counterattack possible.
() How to include the non-hostile casualties on the German side. Obviously the Russian side can replace losses. Germans were losing more men to snow and desease than in actual combat.
Suggestions:
- If you want to create a mod like "Berlin" with a russian onslaught which is only stopalbe versus a AI player, you can make it historical with a 5:1 forces ratio in favor of the Russians.
- if you want a mod like Der Kessel I with chances to win a campaign for both sides, you have to make the Germans stronger than they actually were.
I personally plead for historicity, but as cc5-fan that prefers to play the defending side I would tolerate a mod that cuts historicity down for the sake of gameplay and h2h balance.
Interresting things that need involvement:
- penal batallions on both sides, more KGs than regiments for Germans, also adhoc alarmunits.
- more hilsfwillige for the German side than in Kessel I
- captured russian smg and AT-rifles for the germans, who were forced to use russian material due to lack of ammo and because the russsian smgs were better suited for winter engagement
- destroyed tanks were used as long as the turret and gun were operational
(is it possible to included this? maybe by beeing allowed to place it only once
on a map?just an idea)
- German supply seized on feb. 3rd. From the midst of January the Luftwaffe dropped chutes with supply (mainly ammo) so a minor supply point inside the city seem reasonable.
nice maps. Nice idea. I would also offer you to make the intro video again
greetings Polemarchos
To brave men few words are as good as many
Last edited by Polemarchos on Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
You're just teasing us, PJ .
I'm still having a blast with SDK right now...but I'm already looking forward to playing "the sequel"...keep up the great work!
1) Cosidering the west edge of the Kessel, known to the Germans as the Hell of Marinowka.
Will the campaign map be historical, then the German forces in the West will all depend on one road to retreat to the city. This means that lets guess here 3 Bgs defending the Western edge of the Kessel could not retreat at the same time.
A Work around could be to include more roads on the map than actually existed.
2) With Paulus surredering on the 31st and the Kessel was half cleared. How to implement that Gen. Streckers Korps continued till 3rd feb.
Further suggestion:
My recent research indicates that the battle of Stailingrad ended on 14th of April. In the short time spam the Russians allowes westeners to check their archives several documents reveled that up to 15.000 Germans were still hiding in the city and conducted guerrilla operations. On 18th of March the soviets claimed that they captured or killed addtional germans in the city.
On the 14th the last group of 100 men surrendered due to lack of food.
Most of these guys were Hilfswillige fearing execution after German actual surrender. Door is open to a "What if" mini opereation after feb 3rd. what do you think?
I think the main problem with a Kessel II covering 10. Jan 1943 - 2 feb. 1943 will be th frustration for the German player to play it online. Historically ammo has dropped below 25%, no arty available, no fuel for tanks, not many tanks either, decimated battlegroups.
Other major issues or "balancing" problems:
1) Circle operation supply depot problem in CC5
2) Pitomnik airport fell on the 16th. I suppose it will be in the Front from day 1 or 2, causing the german player to have a supply problem for day one on.
3) Probably a AI vs. human mod, not suitable for h2h?
4) Moral of the Germans has to be medium (low due to exhaustion, high due to fanatism and stand firm orders)
5) German Panzerforce and AT ammo approaching nil, will it make to easy for a Russian player to slice through the kessel.
6) Russian will need supply depots on both ends of the campaign map.
7) German movement capabilities very low, so no counterattack possible.
() How to included to non-hostile casualties on the German side. Obviously the Russian side can replace losses. Germans were losing more men to snow and desease than in actual combat.
Suggestions:
- If you want to create a mod like "Berlin" with a russian onslaught which is only stopalbe versus a AI player, you can make it historical with a 5:1 forces ration in favor of the Russians.
- if you want a mod like Der Kessel I with chances to win a campaign for both sides, you have to make the Germans stronger than they actually were.
I personally plead for historicity, but as cc5-fan that prefers to play the defending side I would tolerate a mod that cuts historicity down for the sake of gameplay and h2h balance.
Interresting things that need involvement:
- penal batallions on both sides, more KGs than regiments for Germans, also adhoc alarmunits.
- more hilsfwillige for the German side than in Kessel I
- captured russian smg and AT-rifles for the germans, who were forced to use russian material due to lack of ammo and because the russsian smgs were better suited for winter engagement
- destroyed tanks were used as long as the turret and gun were operational
(is it possible to included this? maybe by beeing allowed to place it only once
on a map?just an idea)
- German supply seized on feb. 3rd. From the midst of January the Luftwaffe dropped chutes with supply (mainly ammo) so a minor supply point inside the city seem reasonable.
nice maps. Nice idea. I would also offer you to make the intro video again
greetings Polemarchos
Interesting comments! I have to say that I built the mod in order to be historically correct BUT allowing the Axis a little more ammo than they historically are, just for the game to be playable....
Germans will have tank turrets available. They are already done.
Pitomnik and Gumrak will not be the main German depots. Germans will likely loose them very early. I will ceratinly choose Stalingradski and one or two other depots in certer Stalingrad (let's don't forget that the parachute supply was used until the end). Russians will not have depots in center Stalingrad.
More Hilfwillige: yes of course.
Adhoc units: of course as well.
Polemarchos, of course I would like you to help me both for videos, sounds (maybe you could supply me with historical speeches that could be used for the intro) and historical aspects. You have been a memeber of SDK, so welcome in SOC!
Overall, I agree that the game will be very very difficult. I will just try to make a lot of trenches, pillboxes, strongpoints etc... so that there will be a small chance for the Ge player to ambush and try to resist...
Looks awesome! I'm still playing Stalingrad but will continue with your 'Der Kessel' mod.
Wouldn't be great that you could transfer your veteran units to another campaign on another mod? I know for a fact that it worked on CC3, but you could just transfer soldiers from an old campaing to a new campaign on the same mod..
It would be interesting if the germans were on 'no ammo-no fuel' always and could only get those by going to a minor supply map, as Ive read that the air drops weren't that effective and they only got like 25-50% of the MINIMUM required!.
What is this 'circular supply problem' you guys talk about?
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