[mooxe]

CSO Simtek & Matrix Games are currently planning to re-release Close Combat 5.

I have been thinking alot lately on this event. I would like to share my opinions on it with everyone who reads here, in the hopes of generating some debate.

Overall I do not see any advantage for the Close Combat Community in re-releasing this game. There are a number of reasons for this, I will list them off. I will speak as if the re-release is official. The word bug is used to describe an imperfection, defect or incompatibility.

- Matrix Games and CSO Simtek will be fixing a number of bugs. Fixing these bugs will make our current version incompatible with the new version since the EXE and DLL files will be changed. This forces us to upgrade if we want to play people on the new version. Basically re-releasing CC5 as a version incompatible with the original version means trying to create a new community of players from nothing. Can this be done with a seven year old game? CC5 5.01 has either been selling or pirated for the past seven years. There is a huge pool of players out there right now that can all play each other. Why are they starting from scratch by releasing a version thats not compatible with the 1000's out there?

- It has been stated by a few people that re-releasing gets the name Close Combat back out in there. But what exactly will that do? If you were one of those people, explain your theory. Close Combat is still Close Combat, 2D top down RTS, seven years old and only two player. People do not play a game simply because they are reminded its out there and see it at Matrix Games. They play because of what the game has to offer. Re-releasing CC5 doesnt offer what we all want these days. Even with the bugs fixed.

- One of the biggest problems is not being fixed. The firewall issue. When the re-release finally comes, just like in the CoI forums there will be a ton of firewall related posts and frustrated customers.

- The mods all have to be converted. This is being done with CC3 to CoI. I suppose it can be done for the new version. Its very time consuming. This also creates two versions of mods for each "side" of the CC5 community.

- Lets look at CoI. Granted its early, but there seems to be no action. Only techsupport posts, complaint posts and the occaisional AAR. BHQ usually empty also. CC2 regularly has more users in it. I will venture to predict CoI will do nothing long term for the CC community. The main bugs were not fixed (firewall), and theres no CoI website.

- Gamespy constantly gets new players right now. We have sustained about the same levels in Gamespy for years now. The only tapering of numbers we have seen started around the beginning of 2004. Since then there have been a steady amount of new players replacing the retired players.

- Matrix Games released CoI for $49.99 USD (boxed version). Assuming they market CC5 as a patched re-release and not a new game with its own new name, is this realistic to pay that much for a patched game?

Assume there was no re-release. Contemplate whether or not you will continue to play CC5 5.01 in its current state. Ask yourself these questions.

Will I stop or continue playing CC5 5.01 if......

...they dont fix the 00:00 crash?
...they dont fix the force selection screen peek?
...they dont fix the reinforcement bug?
...they dont fix the supply problems?
...they dont fix the hosts advantage?

From my experience with the community, the majority of people did not stop playing CC5 because of these bugs and the other small ones. They quit because its old, graphically outdated, only two player, too many firewall problems and some incompatibility problems. Also, many new games out there gave them the features they wanted. At the very least, why are none of the real problems being fixed?

The last questions...

- Will re-releasing CC5 create and sustain a new player base online and offline that can be part of our community?

- What exactly is the motivation to re-release CC5 and what thought has been put into its impact upon this section of the CC community?

My summary...

Its too late to do this. The CC5 community is too old and established to be uprooted and started from scratch again. Trying to revive CC5 to its 2000-2003 days will not work plain and simple. We wont see any long term revival of CC5 online or even offline. CC5 has worked and kept us hooked for seven years now.

[Polemarchos]

well i am just fine with CC5 as it is, as long as new mods come out every year and older ones updated.

i would rather get used to the bugs than playing a game that splits the fans. I hope they will do a patch version of the original CC 5.

[Pzt_Mac]

Well, I don't think it would be a horrible idea to rerelease it.

But to do so would require them to fix ALL of the bugs, as you've noted above. Anything less than that would be a real let down, and most likely a failure at the box office.

What's behind a rerelease? Clearly a multitude of things I would wager, not the least of which is money... hopefully to use for a future Close Combat in all it's glory.

Mods are THE single most important thing to CC5. As we all know, they've kept the community alive, along with CC sites and clans. So if they brought those into the mix for a rerelease, which would be absolutley required, that would help.

But, you bring up a lot of valid points, all of which would need to be addressed.

But let's be real, I think we'd all be a hell of a lot more interested in a CC6 than a rerelease of CC5.[/u]

[Tejszd]

CC5 is my favorite version and it really only needs the bugs fixed. Thus I would like a re-release as it will;

- it has a higher chance of being done since it is less work than CC6
- will be here before CC6
- will fix the compatibility problems some have with XP
- will be a better base for all our favorite mods

[dacman82]

I personally have been dissatisfied with the CoI release as it didn't really bring anything new to the table yet i had to pay full price ($83AUD) for a game which I basically already own. I thought it would be worth it as there would be an influx of new players from which I would have no problems finding a game I have troubles getting a game at GS) but now I constantly find BHQ empty.
Overall I dont think a rerelease would be worth it for the money I'd have to pay and as Mooxe mentioned it would split the community into the haves and have nots. I'm not sure if Matrix is using these rereleases as a test for the elusive cc6 but if they are I believe they should invest all the time and money into going straight for the new product. All I've seen lately is a lot of dissension and dissapointment (my opinion...) and Id hate it to have a ngative effect on the eventual release of CC6.

[squadleader_id]

Based on the CoI release...I'm not really too keen on the idea of another 'remake or repackage' of the CC series. Making the remake version incompatible with the original release is not a good idea.
Why not just re-release the games as is...with maybe some additional bonuses like extra maps, extra campaigns and ops, maybe extra units, what if scenarios etc.
A re-release of CC5 with bonus stuff would be more appealing...maybe market the game as "CC5 Collector's Edition", "CC5 Gold" or something like that.
Old CC5 fans will certainly buy the re-release (especially if it's sold at budget price) and new players can (maybe) also join in on the fun more easily.
As for the bugs...they need fixing...but if it makes the fixed CC5 incompatible with the original (for H2H and mods)...it will be just like CoI...the need for all mods to be upgraded...H2H players split in two (people with the original game, and players with the new version). We've lived with the CC5 bugs for how many years now? I've gotten used to them

As for incompatibility with new OS and new Systems...why not just keep the original CC5.exe...and work on a launcher program instead. Something like the utility available at CSO...a program that disables directdraw and various other settings before launching the game...maybe couple that with a good CPU slowdown software to deal with the fast scrolling problem.

[RD_Cobalth-77]

I am not waiting for the re-release of CC5.

In fact for the same reason why I didn't buy COI. It would cost me a lot more than 49.99 US dollars (+shipment + taxes).
I bought CC3 years ago, together with CC1 & CC2 (the Trilogie version) for not even a third of that price!
To me Simtek & Matrix are not helping us, they are only helping themselves. We already bought their games years ago. Now they are telling us to throw those games away and buy them AGAIN, and even for a higher price.
If they really want to help us, they should release only a patch (like the 50.1)for free ( or for a few dollars). So that it is easy to install and there will be NO players with different versions online.
If that is not possible, then leave it as it is. And they should be busy with CC6. They can change all the bugs and bad things from the previous Close Combat games and even ad a lot of new features in the new CC6 game.

Of course, as always, ...SHOW ME THE MONEY !!!

[AT_Stalky]

Hm

First its ofcose good that CC still is commercially alive..

-If Sim Tec would realise an “update” or a bug fix for CC5 it would be grate preferable without cost as it just to fix bugs, or low cost for XP etc compatiblety.

-To realise the CC series in again, as with CoI, and CC4new, CC5new would not do much for bring new players in.

-A divert community… Confusion, incompatibility in a small community, yes, lets see, hmm CC2, CC3, CC4, CC5, CoI-CC3, CoI-CC4, CoI-CC5 ?? The problem here is ppl will be in different places, and to few ppl in a game room will make the game die.. Few will draw new ppl into a empty room.

My X-mas list…
The most natural way to fix the “bugs” in CC and whatever, is just to make CC6, with a mod swop system in it. Ie; it would also be able to run CC3-4-5 reg as mod’s (maybe even CC2 or just a conversion of CC2 system). “How about that for sales argument ..”

The new CC6 platform would be worked with to the ultimate perfection, and with one system all effort would be put in to it, not as it will be today with 3+ systems. Most CC players would then be in one game room, thus have a larger community.
A flourishing CC community under a single umbrella.
A CC6 system witch is back compatible and have the new wanted stuff in it.

BG or points for force pool? In CC6 should have both, with a click one select if to select trops with either points or BG, making it compatible with both main wills in the community.

Get a uniform system, a new system, a umbrella for the whole community..

Stalk

[king_tiger_tank]

actually i wouldn't mind it, cause someone has to fix the bad AI problem anyways.

[ANZAC_Tack]

I'd love to see CCV fixed and done over like CoI.

i have had close to 6 months of CoI bliss(after a 3 year+ absence of CCIII), mostly AI though, i put myself through Vista hell...then new modem firewall hell....

to the cc2/3/4/5 combination'umbrella' it cant and wont happen, im no tech man, but even i know the engines are all so unique...

cost of CoI, the download for 49 bucks, no shipping dude!

IF ALL of mooxes sujestion for a major fix are implemented, with a new GC, new maps, mod swap,and maybe a few kool features from CCM family(debussing/enbussing) i'd pay $100+ anyday! consider this: i have played ccv for what, 7 years on and off,for like $50? i'd get another few years out of ccv re release i garanted!,considering other games are lucky to last a 'normal' person some weeks/months!...but years! my god...its like a cent a day!

yes bring on cc6!

i'd even give cc2 another crack if re released!

[squadleader_id]

[Blackstump]

my opinion... to bloody late.. we the community own ccv now ... give us the key to the engine .. or we boycott simtec on any future games they try to to sell us... together we stand divided we fall... im just not damn well interested in giving up the work that has been done by people who dont ask for a cent ... for the thousands of hours they have spent making my life enjoyable.. if this version of ccv goes down then so do i... and i can honestly say ive never played another pc game..spend my money on another ccv and lose all my mods NO BLOODY WAY..

[AT_Stalky]

[Pzt_penguin]

I think a patch would be better than a re-release, but that means no money
for simtek so I doubt thats gunna happen. :zzz

I really doubt a re-release of the same old thing is going to generate that much buzz or sales. That and how the re-release sounds right now it would be a patch that cost 30 to 40 bucks.

I mean if your going to do that why not take the time and just re-do the hole thing and make a new version. Take close combat into the 21 century. I mean you don't have to have dazzling graphics to make a great game look at paradox's hearts of iron series. Thats my 2 cents

[LitFuel716]

[mooxe]

What I think Litfuel is missing though is this online community was just as important as the modders in keeping this game alive. If the online community was not around either playing or posting in forums, there'd be no feedback on the mods. There'd be nobody saying how great they were, or providing support. Think about it, if it wasnt for CSO, TH, Cases, CCS and every other site out there, what would we have now? Probably nothing. The re-releases are coming out because we still have an online community.

What blackstump means by us owning CC5 shouldnt be interpreted legally. This is our community, the online players, the (single) players who play mods, the modders and everyone else who feeds thier CC habit from online resources. We kept this game going this long. We made it successful for our needs. Our community isnt just the people who play in Gamespy or BHQ. Our community is what made CC last. Many of us feel we have some sort of ownership in what should happen to it since we've been playing and modding it for seven years.

So this comes around to the question on why CC5 is being re-released.

What is the motive?

If you want to make a version thats only catering to the single players out there who do not join the community, then your not helping the people who made this game last.

There are far more single player people out there who do see this differently. They have nothing at stake except whats in thier wallets.

If the motive is money, then fine. It wont benefit our community and we can stop talking about its impact cause we know it wont do anything for us. I am sure Matrix Games cares less about this community, they care more about marketting a product to us by using Simtek to do most of the work, leaving us holding the bag in the end.

[Hayduke_C4]

I haven't been around the CC community for the past couple years, though I've been an avid CC maniac since CC1. Lots of good times at the TH site, where many of you may have remembered me as "folksywisdom". Anyway, most of the bugs I could stand, but after 5 years I think the random game crashing bug and the 0:00 crash bug finally compelled me to stop playing CC. Another factor in stopping was the number of good reliable campaign opponents dwindled online.

There has to be thousands of former players like me just waiting for some new life to be breathed into this game in order to justify a return. I think we need more than the same old game at this point. That should be in the form of a new CC, a CC6, with some graphic improvements and new features we've all been talking about for years. There has to be bellls and whistles added, without altering the essence of the game, to draw in new players. The steady influx of new players is essential to keeping CC alive.

[Pzt_Coyote]

Thinking about it a patch and re-release would be great offcourse. And I think there could be a way to not divide the community in the process.
If Simtek would just fix the bugs in CC5 and release it like that and offer a patch for free to get the current CC5 compatible with the re-release version, everyone would be happy. They would still sell their re-release, and keep the community happy and growing at the same time. Mods would still need adjusting offcourse.

But if it was up to me (and the resources were available for Simtek, don't know anything about that) I'd say leave the re-releases and go straight for CC6, implementing all the goodies from CCM and RAF, making it really bugfree etc. That I think is the best bet on getting new life into the CC community.

[CR]

As a Marketing Exective (yes old people play CC too) that handles issues like this one, this is what you do:

- Expand and deliver a bigger, better and new CC6 game.

How does CC acquire new players? How do rekindle old CC gamers back in the fold?
Do the owners/developers of this game want to make money? Does the on-line commmunity want more members ? Do the modders want all the platforms to work from?

To answer all these questions: you take everything you have done in the entire series, combine it into this new release with all the spit and polish, market the hell out of it and everyone comes out a winner. Yes, money will ultimately win out.

Do not think small, [b]think big.[/b] and better. Everyone wants something new and updated, better value. Doesn't everyone on-line want more potential opponents to play? Nobody wants CC to slide and go away. Send a message, everyone wants something bigger/better, all the different options discussed here wrapped up under one tree. You do that and they can't resist putting something out there that will make them more money and satisfiy everyone' thirst.

Finally, I have been a closet CC player/ fan since CC2 debuted. And I also want to thank all the modders and on-line community. Well done

This debate is great and what makes CC fun to play.

[Tejszd]

The re-releases, if they are like COI or better,will improve the original games and are the must have version for anyone new to CC. Atomic is gone. They didn't generate enough sales/money for more retail releases. They tried the military route and couldn't make that way either. If it wasn't for Destineer and Simtek CC would be dead. Simtek is a small group but they are all we have as a CC community and they definitely will not grow if the only way people will support CC is by saying they will only download free patches for 10 + year old games....

Wither you agree or not with the price or releases they do some things that I don't believe people can debate;

1 - add some new people to the CC community
2 - bring in money which increases the chance that we do get a new CC
3 - fix issues with XP (not everybody has this problem but a lot do)
4 - improve the platform that the community mods run on
..... a - fixed bugs, commander importance, game volume control, etc.
..... b - modswap is better than the CC config managers
..... c - Matrix is converting the mods (10 so far for COI)

Are there some down sides, of course.

Yes the CC community could be split more with the re-releases but that already happened with CC2 to 5 (I'm still amazed to see the number of people in the CC2 H2H areas). Should 3 or 4 or 5 never have been released since they split the community?

Yes the online part of the game could have used more fixes/improvements. But once you get past learning how to configure your firewall it does work.

Yes the price is high if you have all the games already. But most things aren't free and what money is left after expenses gets split between three companies (Destineer - the source code owner, Simtek - developer and Matrix - distributor). The money these companies get may allow for CC6 and more to be done. You get to decide what do with your money and they get decide what do with theirs. Maybe it will be CC6....