Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:35 am Post subject: Weapons to lethal?
I took a scenario, removed all my troops except for a BMP3. I was up against about 15 Army infantry sections. My BMP killed 29 men in two shots. These were infantry inside and outside. If I kept my distance I probably could of used that one BMP to kill everyone. Out of curiosity, I ran my BMP right into town 20m away from the nearest enemy team. It took about one minute for my BMP to be killed.
Do "modern weapons" really make Close Combat fun? These vehicles can engage at very high ranges and easily knock out infantry squads. Considering the majority of the maps have wide open flat terrain on them, I tend to think vehicle weapons are overpowered for Close Combat.
Support is the same story. In the original CCM, some games were decided on support alone. Just drop a few arty barrages and most infantry die, and all vehicle are either damaged or destroyed. Yeah sure thats probably the reality in the real world, but kind of borring to have everyone die without a fight.
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I think I've said this before...there's not much close combat in modern warfare.
If you want to play a game with some close up and personal modern warfare action...play CoD4
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:21 am Post subject: yes
i agree, the modern combat is deadly.
i asked MANY times in the last few months, why men die so fuckin fast, but a lot is in open terrain, and modern weapons are just so bad ass.
the example given was, the best WWII units would last about 3 minutes in CCMT.
even compared to vietnam mod CCIII i was amazed at the speed of infantry death. viet mod was carnage, viet rockets, allied centurians 105mm,40mm grenades poppin like crackers, m60's,RPG's it was carnage.
one weapon perplexed me, the 82mm morter, same weapon for like 90 years,same charge weight, similar blast radious,yet in MT it blows em down like flies.
my favourite weapon for inf work was the chain guns on bradleys,though the 120mm on both sides tended to end teams FAST.
welcome to the 21st mooxe.
for comparison, all should try RSR, god u die fast!!!! after WWII its like bloody carnage, 99% of players here would be shocked, like ME!!!
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:50 am Post subject: shit yeah!
seen the beta stuff nomada is pumping out? and somebody said if u pick all large teams, inf only with 10 players, 1500 bodies! thats a fucken lot of graves to dig! OMG body bags by the airplane load!
the bmp3 confused me at first, 100mm and 25mm and rockets, its a bad ass.
the naval barrage in GJS is probably more lethal then the morter/arty in CCMT,but its more consentrated, as CCMT throws it in a wide circle, 5 times i;d say at least. hint is, no close support,u'll get casualties.
BHQ now hosting CCMT i saw yesterday, just mooxe in the room though then.... :zzz
Na, I just used a .50 team at 450 meters and killed each burst enemy flat on the ground...
Morts just "phufff" and killed 4 men in shell hole...
Morts just fire some rnds and take out APC..
Sry, "fun" is not my issue, I cant realy agree with this
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:59 am Post subject: agreed again.
yes zapping infantry prone is not fun, but we are talking about a 500 grain .5 inch lead slug that goes through 1/2 inch steel like butter, with ranges of kilometers. being prone just makes u a smaller target, not invisible.it should penetrate 3/5 ppl easily,taking nice chunks as it goes.
the morters i have issue with, but i think there are AP rounds for light veicles, and top down cn penetrate 1" steel+.
FUN? i found it a massecure compared to CC or any series,apart from maybe RSR. it was close.
need tweaking for 'fun' yes, im sure it will be coming in ANY mod.
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:10 am Post subject: Re: agreed again.
ANZAC_Tack wrote:
yes zapping infantry prone is not fun, but we are talking about a 500 grain .5 inch lead slug that goes through 1/2 inch steel like butter, with ranges of kilometers. being prone just makes u a smaller target, not invisible.it should penetrate 3/5 ppl easily,taking nice chunks as it goes.
the morters i have issue with, but i think there are AP rounds for light veicles, and top down cn penetrate 1" steel+.
FUN? i found it a massecure compared to CC or any series,apart from maybe RSR. it was close.
need tweaking for 'fun' yes, im sure it will be coming in ANY mod.
Not really Tack
You have to hit to kill, doesnt matter how grate penetration it has..
The amount of small ammo needed to kill a man is no riddle. It oght not to be anyway. There are just not fire a burst and hit, and kill. Sry, doent work that way...
Or try Iraq, since 2002 USA have used a half a billion rounds (500 000 000)rounds. Of em about 20 to 30 % has been used in combat situation, rest in training.
So they used betwen 100 000 000 to 150 000 000 rounds to kill how many Iraqis?
((this year alone USA will make 1.8 billion 1 800 000 000 5.56 & 7.62 rnds))
And about the morts kill APC, avarage rnd fire to hit a APC in real life? Thats harder to hit then penetrate IF the rond hits. And thats a BIG IF..
Try the statistics for WW2, and Vietnam, or Korea, or Beirut or whatever...
Again sry for not agree whit the latest CC, I dont whant to spoil the "fun", I just whant a product I think is "fun".
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 1:02 pm Post subject: hay
I agree, the weapons make CCMT not 'fun' for CC grognads, of course i agree.
but are we after fun all the time? as long as its realistic,and both sides can inflict as they should, isnt that the point? a 'simulator' need to 'simulate' real weapons.
ammo, i had to laugh at ammo used in iraq, how many would use for suppression? of combat ammo, my guess 99%, aimed shots at combatants, what 1%, hits from aimed shots...less again. training comes into this also.
agreed, not every shot kills, but a five ho,shes a bitch. i bet her hit rate is lower still, as she is primarily used for suppression.
like i said, 'fun' can be tweaked from this simulator based game.
To me, the total carnage sounds more "fun" than "realistic".
ANZAC_Tack wrote:
ammo, i had to laugh at ammo used in iraq, how many would use for suppression? of combat ammo, my guess 99%, aimed shots at combatants, what 1%, hits from aimed shots...less again. training comes into this also.
agreed, not every shot kills, but a five ho,shes a bitch. i bet her hit rate is lower still, as she is primarily used for suppression.
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: hay
ANZAC_Tack wrote:
I agree, the weapons make CCMT not 'fun' for CC grognads, of course i agree.
but are we after fun all the time? as long as its realistic,and both sides can inflict as they should, isnt that the point? a 'simulator' need to 'simulate' real weapons..
ammo, i had to laugh at ammo used in iraq, how many would use for suppression? of combat ammo, my guess 99%, aimed shots at combatants, what 1%, hits from aimed shots...less again. training comes into this also.
Realistic? ????
So the burst shot in MT is only ones that is aimed and possible hit then??? What super elite veteran sodiers are MT representing then?
And the rest ammo thats fired that make up the bulk of rnds fired as "pointed" or suppression is not fired or representted at all in MT??
Or Silent? Whats realistic with that?
I dont get it, for most mod in CC5 simulates realistic ammo consumtion and suppression.
Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: hay
AT_Stalky wrote:
And the rest ammo thats fired that make up the bulk of rnds fired as "pointed" or suppression is not fired or representted at all in MT??
Or Silent? Whats realistic with that?
I suspect that suppression shots are fired when soldiers are "firing at area" and pointed when "firing".
Also, engagements in CCMT take place at pretty close range.
As for massacring troops with MGS...
The enemy team lied flat on the ground...
But were they in cover?
As far as the mg effectiveness, I guess it is a factor of a lot of things. I was in a shootout with schreck where we each had a team in a building, and after nearly all my ammo was expended, his team was still firing and I only had 2 'injured' (yellow head) soldiers.
I will say that I think this version does a much better job simulating the lethality of explosions. There is a lot of shrapnel and debris that can cause serious injury when a vehicle explodes, or a mortar round goes off etc. Unlike other versions of CC, you troops feel the effects of that. Being near an explosion can be very deadly in CCMT. In an article describing the newest vehicle headed to the front lines, the army said that approximately 80% of casualties and battle wounds were caused be shrapnel and explosive debris.
As far as the mg effectiveness, I guess it is a factor of a lot of things.
in reality soldiers under fire begin to dig in, thus even tarmack road would have fox holes in 10-15mins. MG is suppression weapon not really the weapon tto hit.
Quote:
I will say that I think this version does a much better job simulating the lethality of explosions.
hmmm
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There is a lot of shrapnel and debris that can cause serious injury when a vehicle explodes
that's why pretty all modern soldiers wear flak jacket at least as part of his combat equipment. So lil splinters don't make him any unless they hit non-protected place but it would mean WIA not KIA.
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or a mortar round goes off etc.
only when u at high stance.
WHen u prone mortars will have bad time to kill u as mortar splinters go upwards not donwards unles u have jumping shell.
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Unlike other versions of CC, you troops feel the effects of that.
i believe they feel effect of mortar/arty in CC5 quite realistic.
Quote:
Being near an explosion can be very deadly in CCMT.
it sux. how can full cevlar soldier got killed by splinters?
Quote:
In an article describing the newest vehicle headed to the front lines, the army said that approximately 80% of casualties and battle wounds were caused be shrapnel and explosive debris.
of coz, as they r affected to attack of AED. They don't have much firefites...
Still for yer consideration, LMG can't hit targets beyond 200-250m, assault rifles can't hit targets at ranges beyond 100-150m. MGs(7,62)can theoretically engage targets at 400-600m but how could MGunner c if he hits or no at such distance?
and let's take M16, it's accurate but with single shot, with burst i'd put my money on AK74. Anyway soldier with M16 should not be able to hit enemy at >100m. At least it should be v rare case.
I wouldn't describe, pieces of metal and debris flying at a around 1500 fps as splinters.
As far as the kevlar vest...it's only on their torso...lot's of exposed places on the soldiers body still. Shrapnel through leg that hits the femoral artery, or through the arm where the brachial artery is hit, and a soldier could bleed out in minutes. Even if one of those arteries is not severed, the potential bone, muscle and soft tissue damage is horrific. That's why WWII vets tend to say that they were more afraid of artillery than anything...they couldn't fight back, and there was no way to predict which direction shrapnel might come from.
Then of course, death by explosive concussion. Overpressure caused by an explosion attacks any air-filled organ in your body...like ears, lungs, bowels...as well as the brain. Normal air pressure is about 15 psi. At the point of detonation, 1 block of C4 (approximately 8 pounds), the pressure is around 30,000,000 psi. At 50 feet away, the pressure is still more than 500,000 psi...way more than enough to kill you without leaving a mark. 200 psi is enough to cause traumatic internal injuries.
As far as the mg effectiveness, I guess it is a factor of a lot of things.
in reality soldiers under fire begin to dig in, thus even tarmack road would have fox holes in 10-15mins.
In CCMT they can do that too.
The problem is that if there's a light green line between MG and soldier and soldier is visible on screen, it means that the machinegunner sees the soldier and and therefore can hit him.
Especially, that it's an immobile target.
Dima wrote:
MG is suppression weapon not really the weapon tto hit.
Dima wrote:
Still for yer consideration, LMG can't hit targets beyond 200-250m, assault rifles can't hit targets at ranges beyond 100-150m. MGs(7,62)can theoretically engage targets at 400-600m but how could MGunner c if he hits or no at such distance?
and let's take M16, it's accurate but with single shot, with burst i'd put my money on AK74. Anyway soldier with M16 should not be able to hit enemy at >100m. At least it should be v rare case.
Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:54 pm Post subject: not really............
CSO_Linebacker wrote:
Then of course, death by explosive concussion. Overpressure caused by an explosion attacks any air-filled organ in your body...like ears, lungs, bowels...as well as the brain. Normal air pressure is about 15 psi. At the point of detonation, 1 block of C4 (approximately 8 pounds), the pressure is around 30,000,000 psi. At 50 feet away, the pressure is still more than 500,000 psi...way more than enough to kill you without leaving a mark. 200 psi is enough to cause traumatic internal injuries.
And then there is the fire and heat...
Hmmm??
And I who thought:
An 8cm mort weight 3,5 Kg that’s 8 pounds or so?
And a 12 cm mort some 16 kg +- that’s 35 pounds or so with 3.5 kg HE filling thats 8 ponds??
Peeks in pressure:
Pressure, a 100 pound (thin skin) air bomb produce 17 psi at 30 feet… That enough for pressure to blow you ear drums, if you in a trench or behind a wall you will not brake your drums.
Pressure, a 100 pound (thin skin) air bomb produce 4 psi at 60 feet… That not enough you be fine from pressure.
Pressure, a 500 pound (thin skin) air bomb produce 80 psi at 30 feet… That enough to make about half of the people have injuries to serious injuries from pressure.
Pressure, a 500 pound (thin skin) air bomb produce 6 psi at 60 feet… That’s not enough for any injuries from the pessure.
Pressure, a 4000 pound (thin skin) air bomb produce 1000 psi at 30 feet… That enough for kill more or less everyone there even in a trench.
In all the splinter produced is more likely to damage then pressure…
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