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pzjager

Rep: 12.3
votes: 1


PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:29 pm Post subject: H2H or AI? Reply with quote

I listened to the radio when coming back home this afternoon and listened to the information that Ireland did say NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo!

I am Irish in my heart, this evening! (but remains french and dutch as well!!!! HOURAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!)

Anyway, what is interesting in that is that in so different comunities like "Europe" or CCS, there are the real players and inhabitants for one part, and "offficial" players and inhabitants for the other part.

Do a democratic vote, and the first ones always win.

Look at the officials, they are all H2H.....

There has been a democratic vote on CCS some months ago on the "survey". The results are what they are.

It there a problem?

At least a solution. SDKDK

No comments anymore.

PJ
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mooxe

Rep: 220.1
votes: 25


PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

I think 95% of people play vs AI exclusviely. Based on stats here, for example the number of registered users, the number of downloads, the number of people posting in a forum and the number of people who we see online. Take that all into consideration and it is obvious.

So this isnt a problem at all. However, the more people playing online and participating in this website would be nicer. It gives more input to how we can mod the game, how we can better present the mods on this site and just make a more lively community.

All I would ask any modder to do is include a Gamespy Icon on his mainscreen and a mention in the readme.txt file on where to play online.


Join Discord for technical support and online games.
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pzjager

Rep: 12.3
votes: 1


PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:00 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

mooxe wrote:
I think 95% of people play vs AI exclusviely.


Are 95% of CCS admins, moderators, etc..... AI players??

Hence my prior message

Cheers, friend
PJ
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ZAPPI4

Rep: 33.3
votes: 2


PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it's a fact. I personnaly play online H2H.
Does CCS support H2H more than IA fight? I dont feelt it this way.

I guess, IA is played mainly by people :

- who v got dial up network. It's expensif to play trought this kind of network.
- who dont get the time to play online (playing online mean be ready to wait before the fun)
- Who dont like simply to play versus too strong human tactic.
- who dont think that people can play stronger than IA
- who simply dont know where CC can be played.
- who think that they need to pay to play CC online.

and more and more

Personnaly, playing versus the IA is a waste of time.
i mean, and this is my own feeling ...
I'm playing online to:

meet people
fight their counterstrike
show what is my gameplay and looking their own.

Pzjager, you know your mod are better when it's played versus human.
Playing versus a strong IA is fine on this kind of mod, but i ll prefer to
experiencing it versus human.

Anyway, if anyone feel as CCS dont support enought IA play, please feel
free to tell us and let's see what can be done


Tout est possible ... il faut juste connaitre quand.
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pzjager

Rep: 12.3
votes: 1


PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

ZAPPI4 wrote:
Well, it's a fact. I personnaly play online H2H.
Does CCS support H2H more than IA fight? I dont feelt it this way.

I guess, IA is played mainly by people :

- who v got dial up network. It's expensif to play trought this kind of network.
- who dont get the time to play online (playing online mean be ready to wait before the fun)
- Who dont like simply to play versus too strong human tactic.
- who dont think that people can play stronger than IA
- who simply dont know where CC can be played.
- who think that they need to pay to play CC online.

and more and more

Personnaly, playing versus the IA is a waste of time.
i mean, and this is my own feeling ...
I'm playing online to:

meet people
fight their counterstrike
show what is my gameplay and looking their own.

Pzjager, you know your mod are better when it's played versus human.
Playing versus a strong IA is fine on this kind of mod, but i ll prefer to
experiencing it versus human.

Anyway, if anyone feel as CCS dont support enought IA play, please feel
free to tell us and let's see what can be done


Hi Zappi,

Sorry my friend but everything or so is wrong in you message:

1) You feel that people that play against AI are stupid because they a) don't want, 2) Don't care, 3) Don't know about to do it because they are not computer specialists, 4) Prefer AI

2) H2H has become an esoteric thing. Those who don't understand will remain stupid people.

3) 95% of the CC players play AI. If you are a democrat, think about it.

4) My link with the EU referandum was so obvious! There is a mass of people wanting someting, (always more than 55%) and the official "power" (those who can acces and do the "information"), the little minority, who is at the commands.

5) THe problem with CC is that in this situation!!

I don't care!

Just, I love CC and would like it to be treated diferently

OOOHHH! Just one thing. My future mods are being made for AI with H2H submods. They will remain like this. SO:

a) If they are not interesting, just let me know
b) Make a referundumon CCS. And understand the results

Cheers
PJ
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ZAPPI4

Rep: 33.3
votes: 2


PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

pzjager wrote:


Hi Zappi,

Sorry my friend but everything or so is wrong in you message:

1) 1) You feel that people that play against AI are stupid because they a) don't want, 2) Don't care, 3) Don't know about to do it because they are not computer specialists, 4) Prefer AI

Does a) don't want, 2) Don't care, 3) Don't know about to do it because they are not computer specialists, 4) Prefer AI means be stupid? maybe for you, not for me.

2) H2H has become an esoteric thing. Those who don't understand will remain stupid people.

Well i'm online CC around 10 years now, and i saw many people not able
to play online for many different reasons. But finnaly, they fixed this.


3) 95% of the CC players play AI. If you are a democrat, think about it.

Yes, that's fine, as long as they v got fun. I never said DONT PLAY IA,
I said I DONT PLAY IA.


4) My link with the EU referandum was so obvious! There is a mass of people wanting someting, (always more than 55%) and the official "power" (those who can acces and do the "information"), the little minority, who is at the commands.


5) THe problem with CC is that in this situation!!

What is the problm with CC?

I don't care!

Me not

Just, I love CC and would like it to be treated diferently

Hum, i dont understand how bad u can feel to be treated. Please, tell me.

OOOHHH! Just one thing. My future mods are being made for AI with H2H submods. They will remain like this. SO:

a) If they are not interesting, just let me know
b) Make a referundumon CCS. And understand the results


Cheers
PJ


Sometime, i'm searching deeply on me, what is going wrong


Tout est possible ... il faut juste connaitre quand.
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ZAPPI4

Rep: 33.3
votes: 2


PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

mooxe wrote:
I think 95% of people play vs AI exclusviely. /quote]

Are 95% of CCS admins, moderators, etc..... AI players??

Hence my prior message

Cheers, friend
PJ


And what is the problm about this?
Are you on the way to try to change our loving?
Does CCs is crap for IA player cos all their moderator are playing only H2H?
Are u serious or what? Please, keep in mind. Everyone are free to do what
they want. As u , he, they, i, everyone.
Dont we support your mods?
dont we posted news, guides, maps etc for your mods?
Dont we give to you private FTP to archive your mods?
Dont we opened a forum for your mods?
Dont we shared your mods file to eveyone trought download section?
How many time i fixed personally combat camera, forum problem with your mod?
I really, really dont understand why u are so agressive and vindicatif facing CCS.


Tout est possible ... il faut juste connaitre quand.
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Polemarchos

Rep: 27.3


PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:15 pm Post subject: Re: H2H or AI? Reply with quote

pzjager wrote:

Do a democratic vote, and the first ones always win.


That is why platonists like myself consider democracy to degenerate into ochlocracy. Hence it is difficult to settle the propotion of inequity between them. Long live the rule of the philosophers. :angry1 Although I have to admit that only democracy allows system critique and that is fine...


To brave men few words are as good as many
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Polemarchos

Rep: 27.3


PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:35 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to put it straight, despite my personal political beliefs, CCS has never ever treated anybody unequal. No modder, no user, no AI fan, no H2H fan. The only targets of housecleaning are certain stuff like spambots (robotic or human-based) that get deleted (spam), get a warning (commercialism) or even as ethic police (rassist or hatred posts).

This means that in fact your critique is pointless since it seems that you anticipate an opposition that does not exist.


To brave men few words are as good as many
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pzjager

Rep: 12.3
votes: 1


PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

At least Polemarchos has understood the situation....

For the rest, I will continue to mod CC for CCS excusively for the worst and the best. Because CCS is the only CC site and has always been faithful.

Apart of that, I remain in my opinion. CCS does not represent the CC community as Brussels does not represent european people.

Will post the last BH and SDKDK news tomorrrow, with the latest pics.

Good night
PJ
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Panzermayer

Rep: 12


PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:19 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Love playing AI, mabey more fun then H2H.

Good to see that the people from Europe feel the same about the corrupt and totalitarian EU juggernaut.

Something totally different. Holland beats France!!!!Twisted Evil 4-1!!!!Rolling Eyes Orange legion will take over Vienna on the 29th:D
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ZAPPI4

Rep: 33.3
votes: 2


PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:27 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

CCS dont try to represent anything, CCS is just the crossroad for every CC fan to meet them,
share their work, play together...


Tout est possible ... il faut juste connaitre quand.
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mooxe

Rep: 220.1
votes: 25


PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:57 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not too sure how we can support AI players more vice H2H players... is there even a difference in the job to do?


Join Discord for technical support and online games.
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Pzt_Kevin_dtn

Rep: 10.9


PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:49 am Post subject: Reply with quote

pzjager wrote:


Hi Zappi,

Sorry my friend but everything or so is wrong in you message:

1) You feel that people that play against AI are stupid because they a) don't want, 2) Don't care, 3) Don't know about to do it because they are not computer specialists, 4) Prefer AI

2) H2H has become an esoteric thing. Those who don't understand will remain stupid people.

PJ


PJ - I read Zappi's comments and no where did I read him use the word Stupid or even infer stupidty for those who play the AI.

I think the vast majority of people do play vs the AI because:
- its frankly very difficult to setup the game to play h2h (personally it took me an entire Saturday afternoon to get it setup right and that was with some help form other players)
- they don't have the right internet connection to handle h2h play
- There is a time commitment involved with playing h2h (I've sat in a lobby for a few hours before with no one to play)
- it can be intimidating to play a human opponent (I was scared half to death when I fought my first h2h game against a stranger)
- they like the convenience of playing the AI according to their own schedule

So let me speak frankly as one who SOLELY played vs the AI for close to 6 YEARS. For SIX straight YEARS I killed the AI, I walloped the AI, and I toyed with the AI, but I never got up the courage to go play anyone h2h. So like the vast majority of people here I was SOLELY an AI player for 6 years.

I finally got tired of playing the AI and moved on to play other games. But I eventually would come back and play CC again vs the AI. Sometime during this period GJS became available on CSO and Atilla helped me manually install the game. So I played GJS vs AI for a long time as well but got bored again playing the worthless and predictable AI.

Sometime during this period I bought another PC and had a brother living close by and we ended up syncing the two PC's via serial to play h2h for the very first time. YOU CAN"T IMAGINE THE SHEER JOY and WONDER at playing an opponent with REAL INTELLIGENCE. An opponent who can actually react to my moves or force me to abandon my plans and form a hasty defense. The difference was like NIGHT AND DAY. I seriously not kidding. It is a HUGE difference.

But even then I still never got the courage up to try out H2H against other people other than the occasional game against my brother. I finally got sick and tired one day of playing DiabloII and went looking for another challenge. I pulled out my CC disc, updated my mods, loaded GameSpy (GS) and went looking for a fight. Initially I could only join games because I did not have my PC setup properly to Host on GS. From the start I got my butt kicked by players who were far more skilled at the game than I was. But I eventually met some players from Pzt who hosted some friendly and educational games and then helped me get my system setup properly. This all occured late Autumn of 2006 and I eventually joined Pzt January of 2007.

SO HERE'S MY POINT
I WAS solely an AI player for 6 years
I got bored with the AI
I got over my fear of playing H2H
I took the time to setup my PC to play H2H
I now SOLELY play H2H because the AI holds no challange for me.
IMHO if the 95% who play solely vs the AI really had a good opportunity to play H2H then I think the preference of play would tip the other way.

As I have said many times over and over again. Playing vs a human opponent is a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE.

PJ - With all due respect, I enjoy your mods, you have done a great job making them, and you have been a great asset at keeping CC alive and kicking. You have even managed to make the AI a little more challenging to fight. BUT... it still gets predictable and boring pretty quickly.

PJ- I would like to challenge you to an H2H fight so that you can really experience what H2H play is. Until you experience an H2H fight against a capable player you will forever remain in the dark about the difference. If you are in agreement, we can coordinate a game or small op suitable to our schedules. The gauntlet is thrown.
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rakeman




PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:19 am Post subject: Reply with quote

As a two time poster (woot), a lecher of material and mods from not only this site but CSO and a player who has played AI for most of my time, I'd say the AI is just easy, not just on a skill level. Its a painless system. I can quit and play whenever I want. There is no commitment. The only rules are mine and I can do what ever I want.

I have gotten tired of playing the AI, I've played CC2 & CC5 online, I even have a TH account with like 5 games played in the last 5 years. But I've always gone back to AI, Why? Because I'm a casual player. I only play a couple of times a week and it takes me months to finish a campaign. I've done three days of SOC and I started it in Feb. I'd assume that the 95% of people your quoting are causals. Players with no commitment who play on a part time basis.

Hamachi is a good tool to bring in those players but its always full and it took me an hour or two searching threads to find the game room and password. (Is it: Close Combat 5; cc5 ???) If its not then I don't know it. Gamespy is alright but that change of firewall can turn a lot of players off. It did for me, because I don't know a thing about computers. If there was a mod which enabled game play through the actual game (similar to most modern games) instead of a third party like gamespy or Hamachi then that might increase the number of H2H players. Only a suggestion though.


Looking for campaign player H2H, any mod
East Coast of Australia.


Last edited by rakeman on Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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pzjager

Rep: 12.3
votes: 1


PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:14 am Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="ZAPPI4]I really, really dont understand why u are so agressive and vindicatif facing CCS.[/quote]

Zappi;

What I don't understand is why you feel that i am agressive and vindicative facing CCS....

I have always told in all my posts that CCS was a splendid site. Look at the number of messages I have sent since three years, the number of mods that I did or are in progress and you will see that I -maybe I am unmodest here- I strongly believe that I have been one of the most active to help the site.

The deception here is to see that it is difficult, if not impossible, to express some opinions without being considered as vindicative.... Could the reason be some susceptibility?

Anyway, I have taken the decision to stop posting or answering to any controversive topic in the future. I will only post now on my mods, once a month and nothing else. I don't want to see the CC forums becoming a fight between people who, at the end, have the same objective: serve CC the best way they can do. I think you can agree with that point.

Zappi, once again, be sure that I consider CCS as a fantastic site and yourself as a friend.

We just disagree on some topics and have, I believe, comprehension issues.

Cheers
PJ
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schrecken

Rep: 195
votes: 15


PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:20 am Post subject: Reply with quote

PJ

I like the way things are heading, I think

Smile

EDIT; you have obviously been doing some hard thinking on these matters.... cheers.
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Roel




PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:10 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Pzt_Kevin_dtn wrote:
pzjager wrote:


Hi Zappi,

Sorry my friend but everything or so is wrong in you message:

1) You feel that people that play against AI are stupid because they a) don't want, 2) Don't care, 3) Don't know about to do it because they are not computer specialists, 4) Prefer AI

2) H2H has become an esoteric thing. Those who don't understand will remain stupid people.

PJ


PJ - I read Zappi's comments and no where did I read him use the word Stupid or even infer stupidty for those who play the AI.

I think the vast majority of people do play vs the AI because:
- its frankly very difficult to setup the game to play h2h (personally it took me an entire Saturday afternoon to get it setup right and that was with some help form other players)
- they don't have the right internet connection to handle h2h play
- There is a time commitment involved with playing h2h (I've sat in a lobby for a few hours before with no one to play)
- it can be intimidating to play a human opponent (I was scared half to death when I fought my first h2h game against a stranger)
- they like the convenience of playing the AI according to their own schedule

So let me speak frankly as one who SOLELY played vs the AI for close to 6 YEARS. For SIX straight YEARS I killed the AI, I walloped the AI, and I toyed with the AI, but I never got up the courage to go play anyone h2h. So like the vast majority of people here I was SOLELY an AI player for 6 years.

I finally got tired of playing the AI and moved on to play other games. But I eventually would come back and play CC again vs the AI. Sometime during this period GJS became available on CSO and Atilla helped me manually install the game. So I played GJS vs AI for a long time as well but got bored again playing the worthless and predictable AI.

Sometime during this period I bought another PC and had a brother living close by and we ended up syncing the two PC's via serial to play h2h for the very first time. YOU CAN"T IMAGINE THE SHEER JOY and WONDER at playing an opponent with REAL INTELLIGENCE. An opponent who can actually react to my moves or force me to abandon my plans and form a hasty defense. The difference was like NIGHT AND DAY. I seriously not kidding. It is a HUGE difference.

But even then I still never got the courage up to try out H2H against other people other than the occasional game against my brother. I finally got sick and tired one day of playing DiabloII and went looking for another challenge. I pulled out my CC disc, updated my mods, loaded GameSpy (GS) and went looking for a fight. Initially I could only join games because I did not have my PC setup properly to Host on GS. From the start I got my butt kicked by players who were far more skilled at the game than I was. But I eventually met some players from Pzt who hosted some friendly and educational games and then helped me get my system setup properly. This all occured late Autumn of 2006 and I eventually joined Pzt January of 2007.

SO HERE'S MY POINT
I WAS solely an AI player for 6 years
I got bored with the AI
I got over my fear of playing H2H
I took the time to setup my PC to play H2H
I now SOLELY play H2H because the AI holds no challange for me.
IMHO if the 95% who play solely vs the AI really had a good opportunity to play H2H then I think the preference of play would tip the other way.

As I have said many times over and over again. Playing vs a human opponent is a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE.

PJ - With all due respect, I enjoy your mods, you have done a great job making them, and you have been a great asset at keeping CC alive and kicking. You have even managed to make the AI a little more challenging to fight. BUT... it still gets predictable and boring pretty quickly.

PJ- I would like to challenge you to an H2H fight so that you can really experience what H2H play is. Until you experience an H2H fight against a capable player you will forever remain in the dark about the difference. If you are in agreement, we can coordinate a game or small op suitable to our schedules. The gauntlet is thrown.




Pzt_Kevin,

I really couldn't agree with you more here...

The question H2H or AI to me is largely irrelevant. I consider CC H2H and CC5 AI as two entirely different games, each with their own right of existence.

95% of CC players might play vs AI, but 95% for reasons that have nothing to do with actual gameplay, and everything to do with time constraints and availability of opponents. But seriously, don't even think that AI can give you anything near the challenge and thrill of playing another human being. That wisdom will eventually come to all AI players after some time, you just need to have played long enough (it took me from 1996 to 1997, when I discovered that CC1 could be played by putting a null modem cable between two PCs Smile. CC in that respect, is not different from the majority of PC games (and in many AI respects even worse).

Coding infantry as vehicles, reducing ammo levels, increasing team sizes, etc might be very nice and handy to mask AI stupidity, but it doesn't change the fact that you sacrifice heavily in realism, historical accuracy and play balance. A mod that states 'meant to be played by xxx side' already kind of gives it away...

While making mods for those 95% of people is a very noble and rewarding thing, and should be applauded as a valuable contribution to the life of this great game, it is quite another thing to make a decent H2H mod.
A good H2H mod or submod to me, is one where you are essentially indifferent as to which side to play, because both sides have an equal chance of victory (game victory does not equal historical victory!). And that's not just a question of squeezing in a few extra units in the force pools, but of rethinking map deployment zones, determining custom victory conditions, reconsidering strategic connections, in short rethinking the whole game.
Sadly, many (not all) H2H (sub)mods do a poor job at meeting the needs of the H2H player. In my experience, if the core mod is already built from a 'play vs AI' point of view, the H2H submod will not change much.

So if you ask me, there can never be enough publicity for H2H play, and the best way to extend the life of CC is to find ways to make it more accessible for humans to play each other. Be it by facilitating internet play, by reducing time constraints (f.i. by increasing the modularity of a campaign), or simply by designing mods from a genuine H2H perspective. The one defining quality of the modding community, creativity, could still be put to good use here.
AI might be the future, but not just now yet...

So, unless you're using the AI to boost your self-confidence and give you a sense of divine supremacy, come out of kindergarten, and experience what you've been missing all that time! 95% might be the 'silent' majority, but every once in a while, somebody steps out of the silence and says 'hey, I want more out of this game!'
Will you be that next someone?

Now how's that for some publicity! Laughing
BTW: hosting sites like this one is the single best thing that has ever happened to the game; keep up the fantastic work!

Cheers,

Roel
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Pzt_Kevin_dtn

Rep: 10.9


PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Roel wrote:

Sadly, many (not all) H2H (sub)mods do a poor job at meeting the needs of the H2H player. In my experience, if the core mod is already built from a 'play vs AI' point of view, the H2H submod will not change much.

Roel


I agree that the "canned" GC's don't always work for H2H play even when the a submod has been created for H2H play but they can still be very entertaining to play. What I find especially important is to have the ability to design custom scenarios from the core mod for use in H2H play. That way you can pick and choose from the available BG's and maps and design a custom Op that will be playable and winnable by either side.

The problem that we have had with SDK and SOC is greatly reduced capability of the German Forces. Now this is by design for single play purposes but makes it terrbily difficult to do much from an h2h standpoint. But I do believe that PJ is working on a submod for both SDK and SOC that will improve the capability of the Germans and give them a fighting chance to actually win.
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Roel




PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:36 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Pzt_Kevin_dtn]
I agree that the "canned" GC's don't always work for H2H play even when the a submod has been created for H2H play but they can still be very entertaining to play. What I find especially important is to have the ability to design custom scenarios from the core mod for use in H2H play. That way you can pick and choose from the available BG's and maps and design a custom Op that will be playable and winnable by either side.

The problem that we have had with SDK and SOC is greatly reduced capability of the German Forces. Now this is by design for single play purposes but makes it terrbily difficult to do much from an h2h standpoint. But I do believe that PJ is working on a submod for both SDK and SOC that will improve the capability of the Germans and give them a fighting chance to actually win.[/quote]

Hi Kevin,

My remarks were not specifically for SDK or SOC, it was more a general observation. I also read that PJ is working on an H2H submod. I wish him success and I hope he'll be able to solve some of play balance issues... if the experience/morale issue is solved, it would make for a great H2H campaign!

Roel
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In August of 2004, Zappi, Homba, Bambam887, RedScorpion and MOOXE all pitched
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