Well, he was in a damned if you do, damned if you dont situation. In course of the Vance-Owen Plan Agreements in Athens all parties were in favor of the accord to be signed. In Jahorina (3 days later, where the local Serbs of Bosnia held an assembly), the Greek prime minister gave karadzic his pen to sign the treaty with the words: "Keep this pen for you will remember it." Karadzic took the pen a starred like 5 minutes at the treaty and then returned the pen to Mitsotakis stating: "I want to sign, but I can't."
Milosevic and Mitsotakis were ousted from the assembly and signature of Karadzic in Athens became obsolote for it was rejected by the Srpska assembly, despite Karadzic attempts to pass it.
Dont get me wrong here, by any standards (Geneva Protocol I-IV/ Common Article 1-3) he is a war criminal, but there are times in history where leaders are in postions where any action has negative consequences. And in fact, he has the authority, but not the sole responsibility for the crimes.
He would have been killed by his own people as traitor. So he picked the obivious path against Milosevic's and Mitsotakis will.
Thats Balkan-reality. That he took a major part in the 1995 massacre in Srebenica has its roots in Jahorina, where not Karadzic but the members of the assembly prolonged the war.
It would be just in the face of history to equally prosecute those members of Srpska parliament as well.
Chronology:
MAY 1993
1- 2 May - An international conference on the solution of the Bosnian crisis held in Athens. In addition to the host, Greek Prime Minister Constantin Mitsotakis, the conference participants included Presidents Dobrica Cosic, Slobodan Milosevic, Momir Bulatovic and Franjo Tudjman, leaders of three ethnic communities in Bosnia- Herzegovina Radovan Karadzic, Mate Boban and Alija Izetbegovic. Newly appointed Co- Chairman of the Conference on Yugoslavia Thorvald Stoltenberg, and US and Russian envoys for the former Yugoslavia Reginald Bartholomew and Vitaly Churkin joined David Owen and Cyrus Vance, who convened the conference. At the end of the meeting Radovan Karadzic, President of Republika Srpska, signed the Vance- Owen Peace Plan for Bosnia- Herzegovina, on condition that "the Assembly of Republika Srpska at its session on 5 May supports the decision of its delegation made here, in Athens, on 2 May 1993."
3 May - In a press release issued after the UN Security Council session it is stated that "members of the Security Council welcome the success achieved in Athens and the fact that now all three parties in the Bosnian conflict accepted the Vance- Owen Peace Plan". The statement further emphasizes that "the Security Council, at the emergency procedure, starting tomorrow, will review further preparatory actions necessary for the implementation of the Plan in practice."
4 May - The Federal Government of FR Yugoslavia reviewed the new situation and assessed the signing of the Vance- Owen Plan by President Radovan Karadzic as "a reasonable and thoughtful decision", expecting that it would be ratified by the parliament of Republika Srpska.
Croatian side agreed with the subsequently demanded guarantee of the delegation of the Republic of Srpska Krajina, which was its condition to accept the Agreement on the implementation of the Security Council resolution 802, signed on 6 April 1993. If the Assembly of the Republic of Srpska Krajina adopts the signed Agreement, cease-fire will come into force within four days, and within 10 days the Croatian forces would withdraw to the positions prior to 22 January.
5 May - Co- Chairman of the International Conference on Former Yugoslavia Cyrus Vance turned over his duty to the newly appointed Co- Chairman, Swede Thorvald Stoltenberg.
5- 6 May - The Assembly of Republika Srpska, held on Mt. Jahorina, discussed the verification of Radovan Karadzic's signature on the Vance- Owen Peace Plan for Bosnia- Herzegovina. The session was attended by the Greek Prime Minister Constantin Mitsotakis, Presidents Dobrica Cosic, Slobodan Milosevic and Momir Bulatovic, who appealed to the deputies to accept the Plan. After a 17- hour debate, in early hours of 6 May the deputies of the Assembly of Republika Srpska refused to endorse the signature on the Vance- Owen Plan. With 51 votes for, two against and 12 abstained the Assembly confirmed its earlier Bijeljina decision to hold a referendum on 15 and 16 May, so that Serbian population will decide on the acceptance of the Vance- Owen Plan.
"Prominent friends of the Bosnian Serbs sat in the front row as the debate dragged on. They included the chief patron of the Bosnian Serbs' army, Mr. Milosevic; the Yugoslav President, Dobrica Cosic, and the Greek Prime Minister, Constantine Mitsotakis, who was the mediator at the meeting near Athens last weekend when Dr. Karadzic accepted the Vance-Owen plan in principle. All gave speeches urging that the peace plan be accepted.
The assembly, a self-appointed body made up mostly of local political leaders, met at the Jahorina, a once-popular ski resort, now virtually abandoned. The resort was crowded with bodyguards, militiamen and other fighters who discussed the peace plan among themselves as the delegates debated behind closed doors. "
If we as private individuals can see the hypocrisy in the major religions and their influence in both politics and in their approval of bloodshed in warfare and genocide, then it stands to reason that the very governments that are supported by the major religions also see the holy mess construed by these blood thirsty, power mad clergy and clerics who actually do believe they are doing the bidding of a higher power and are convinced they are above reprehension!
You believe what you want to believe and let others believe what they want to believe.
That's why Cristianism -as well as Judaism or any one else-is a religion and why
Islam is not. In Islam, You are part of a sect and are killed if going out of it!!
Anyway, I am wasting my time with callaborators like you
Yeah, but it may stop being a sect.
Do you know that the first constitution in Europe, Polish Constitution of 3rd May said that apostasy (leaving the Catholic sect) is punished with death?
the pics you show are from the Ljotic Group which represent 3-5% of the Chetnik movement. as Croatian you know that your folks used same kind of barbarism, and in fact started it in WW2. I dont defend any of these actions, but it is strange that a Croat points out Serb barbarism when it was the Croats that inflicted the larger margin of civilian murders during 1941-1945.
And dont forget, in the end they all died together(Ustasha and Chetniks) in Slovenia.
read here:
Manoschek, Walter: Serbien ist Judenfrei. Militärische Besatzungspolitik und Judenvernichtung in Serbien 1941/42. Schriftreihe des Militärgeschichtlichen Forschungsamtes Vol. 38, München: Oldenburg 1985.
the pics you show are from the Ljotic Group which represent 3-5% of the Chetnik movement. as Croatian you know that your folks used same kind of barbarism, and in fact started it in WW2. I dont defend any of these actions, but it is strange that a Croat points out Serb barbarism when it was the Croats that inflicted the larger margin of civilian murders during 1941-1945.
And dont forget, in the end they all died together(Ustasha and Chetniks) in Slovenia.
read here:
Manoschek, Walter: Serbien ist Judenfrei. Militärische Besatzungspolitik und Judenvernichtung in Serbien 1941/42. Schriftreihe des Militärgeschichtlichen Forschungsamtes Vol. 38, München: Oldenburg 1985.
Not quite true, especially about Chetnik movement...what do you know except you have read some books about it, and who knows from whom..
First of all what about Ustase regiment living peacefully with whole Chetnik Dinara Corps in Croatia near Knin (if you don't know, those chetniks were Croatian citizens - called militia in fascist Croatian goverment), and what about Croatian partisan brigades....? Specially Dalmatian brigades 90% Croatian population... For instance look at the 4th axis offensive (the battle of Neretva), how many croatian partisan brigades were involved in battle, look how many chetniks fought against them on axis side.
7th Banija Division (joined later) also Croatian
9th Dalmatian Division (joined later) also Croatian
The point is that Ustase and Chetniks worked together along with Germans and Italians against partisans, which were almost equaly joined by serbs and croatians if you look statistically. Not to forget that Serbs were and still are almost twice numerous than Croatians.
I know that Greek people have special simpathy for the Serbs, like French too. Probably because you are both ortodox christians who fought togeteher in 1 war, but to speak about Croatians like nazis is stupid, I personally had 3 members of familly fighting in Tito's partisans, who was btw half Croatian, half Slovenien. Born Croatian.
So, in the end i have to say, i'm sorry but you people don't know anything about 2ww in yugoslavia. You don't know about Kingdom of Yugoslavia 1918 - 1941, and represion of Serbian King towards Croatians, and Croatian desire for a country of their own, long time ago lost. Lost since 1102. since Croatian Hungarian deal of union kingdom, lost from fighting against Osman Empire. In Vatican, pope Leo X in 1519. Croatian Kingdom called ''Antemurale Christianitatis'' or bulwark of Christianity (along with other nations fighting Turks - Hungarians, Germans), Croatia called 16th and 17th century "duo plorantes saecula Croatiae" or two weeping centuries of Croatia. It was pain and struggle for survival over centuries..and now Croatia is called fascist, bollocks!!
You sholud check your feelings my friend..
No offence to anyone, no war to anyone, no pain and tears for anyone, just PEACE to everyone
Not quite true, especially about Chetnik movement...what do you know except you have read some books about it, and who knows from whom..
my favorite ad personam again...
Well i dont read books, i study german military documents, That's i why pointed out to read for example Manoschek's work which is a doctoral thesis.
mochoho wrote:
First of all what about Ustase regiment living peacefully with whole Chetnik Dinara Corps in Croatia near Knin (if you don't know, those chetniks were Croatian citizens - called militia in fascist Croatian goverment), and what about Croatian partisan brigades....?
I didnt state anywhere in my post that "all" Croats were Ustasha. I didnt state the Croats didnt resist against Axis as well.
Schmider, Klaus: Partisanenkrieg in Jugoslawien 1941-1944. Hamburg/Berlin/Bonn: Mittler 2002.
mochoho wrote:
The point is that Ustase and Chetniks worked together along with Germans and Italians against partisans, which were almost equaly joined by serbs and croatians if you look statistically. Not to forget that Serbs were and still are almost twice numerous than Croatians.
Ustashe worked with Germans and fought Italians because of Dalmatia. Chetniks were armed by Italians to fight Communists, but Germans disliked the idea to form militias and attacked them more often in 1941-1942.
In Weiss I-III Germans disarmed Chetnics,while Italians allowed to escape.
Generally it is observeable that the Chetniks fought alongside Axis only when Italians were close enough to cover their retreat by turning a blind eye on German demands. Only in 1944 were it became clear that the Communists were the real menace for the Chetniks they joined the Axis for real (at that time Allies had seized supply of Mihailovic). Despite that in the winter if 1944 and in 1945 Germans often observed Chetnik vs. Ustashe battles in Croatia within their own frontline.
mochoho wrote:
I know that Greek people have special simpathy for the Serbs, like French too. Probably because you are both ortodox christians who fought togeteher in 1 war, but to speak about Croatians like nazis is stupid, I personally had 3 members of familly fighting in Tito's partisans, who was btw half Croatian, half Slovenien. Born Croatian.
I am not biased, it is called academic objectivity.
mochoho wrote:
So, in the end i have to say, i'm sorry but you people don't know anything about 2ww in yugoslavia. You don't know about Kingdom of Yugoslavia 1918 - 1941, and represion of Serbian King towards Croatians, and Croatian desire for a country of their own, long time ago lost.
i know that i dont know, thats more than claiming to know.
mochoho wrote:
Lost since 1102. since Croatian Hungarian deal of union kingdom, lost from fighting against Osman Empire. In Vatican, pope Leo X in 1519. Croatian Kingdom called ''Antemurale Christianitatis'' or bulwark of Christianity (along with other nations fighting Turks - Hungarians, Germans), Croatia called 16th and 17th century "duo plorantes saecula Croatiae" or two weeping centuries of Croatia. It was pain and struggle for survival over centuries..and now Croatia is called fascist, bollocks!!
i am well aware of both the ethno-genesis and history of Croatia, thanks for the details though.
mochoho wrote:
You sholud check your feelings my friend..
there were not hurt. In fact, i like talking about history emotionless.
Thing is events effect people emotionally, that's why they react the way they do.
valid
schrecken wrote:
Trying to analyze historical texts in a disembodied emotionless state is one of the great failures of many would be historians.
not texts but documents. Today only synoptic approaches meet scientific standards of comprehension. One starts to collect quantitative data hoping to find a correlation and then evaluates qualitatively in order to test its causality. If one leaves the abstract an argument get weaker against criticism.
schrecken wrote:
It's the stirring of emotions that makes great things happen and conversly wreaks havoc upon the world.
maybe. but it may also be a systemic causality we are yet to discover.
there are quantum mechanics theories applied to human behavior.
Check here: 'Social Theory' as Cartesian Science: An Auto-Critique from a Quantum Perspective." 2006 In 'Constructivism and International Relations', edited by Stefano Guzzini and Anna Leander. London: Routledge.
schrecken wrote:
end Lesson #1
can i have the background guide to the lecture?
thanks in advance
i will reply to you soon about doctoral thesis. The documents are relevant about ustase - chetnik cooperation. Documents are held in Croatian and Serbian national archive that are now available for public. Also i will post these documents in original form and try to translate them in english.
So, you will see that some doctoral thesis is just thesis of some western misguided person who thinks that german archive is precise. It's not, people who lived here know better what happened back there. Also, you said that lot of chetniks ended their lives in Bleiburg and some other mass graves produced by communist in the end of the war. That also is just a half way truth. Great number of those people ended at the end of the war as partisans, switching uniforms unlike croatian ustase. As croatians, many people had to serve croatian regular army (Domobrans - home deffence), well, lot of those guys switched uniforms and went over to partisans. My grandfather was Domobran when he deserted over partisans in spring 1943. He ended war as a sergeant in Yuoslavian Peoples Army liberating Belgrade, Zagreb and Trieste.
I'm not so emotional as I'm mad when i here such nonsence...
i will reply to you soon about doctoral thesis. The documents are relevant about ustase - chetnik cooperation. Documents are held in Croatian and Serbian national archive that are now available for public. Also i will post these documents in original form and try to translate them in english.
awesome! Please use the Antikrates section and give it a new thread.
I would be very happy if you contribute regularly scans or other data about your studies. Thats why I asked mooxe to create the section here.
mochoho wrote:
So, you will see that some doctoral thesis is just thesis of some western misguided person who thinks that german archive is precise. It's not, people who lived here know better what happened back there. Also, you said that lot of chetniks ended their lives in Bleiburg and some other mass graves produced by communist in the end of the war. That also is just a half way truth. Great number of those people ended at the end of the war as partisans, switching uniforms unlike croatian ustase. As croatians, many people had to serve croatian regular army (Domobrans - home deffence), well, lot of those guys switched uniforms and went over to partisans. My grandfather was Domobran when he deserted over partisans in spring 1943. He ended war as a sergeant in Yuoslavian Peoples Army liberating Belgrade, Zagreb and Trieste. [
I'm not so emotional as I'm mad when i here such nonsence...
Haire !
good. I appreciate that. Exchange of thoughts without emotions is the best way of learning.
Polemarchos, also ustase did not fought Italians over Dalmatia, Croatian partisans did. Ante Pavelic, gave parts of Dalmatia to Mussolini, Italians accused for war crimes in Dalmatia never ending up in a prison. Because, they surrendered 1943 and switched to allies. BUUUA for allies, they did that in 1 war, when they promised parts of Dalmatia to Italy. Chetniks fighting Ustase was happening almost by default in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Like in our latest war, Croatians and Bosnians (Muslims) on one side and Serbs on other side.
Also i will post, about Serbian Kings repression towards Croatia in 1918 - 1941, killing Croatians who were too much politically (peaceful) involved in Croatian freedom (Stjepan Radic for instance). Serbian politics about Croatians going over every decent limit ended in killing Serbian King Aleksandar I. Karadjordjevic in Marseilles 1934. That assassination did ustase movement as you can see before the 2 war. I don't approve their method but that was logical as we can see similar movements all around the world. It was terrorist act.
Chetniks fighting Ustase was happening almost by default in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Like in our latest war, Croatians and Bosnians (Muslims) on one side and Serbs on other side.
I have to correct myself, ustase and chetniks almost never fought each other, they fought together against partisans. There will be a topic about ustase and chetniks in ww2 Ex-Yugoslavia
What is interesting now is to know what the best historical knowers like Mooxe think about it. They came once in the Balkans following a guide showwing them what was "true" or "the reality".
10000% of these people are out of Europe and are just ignorants.
Shame on them
Nuuye
I am a special forum troll. My only purpose is to disrupt conversations with meaningless french surrender talk.
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