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Do incapacitations count as a soldier's kills?

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Ernie_M

Rep: 37.4


PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:56 pm Post subject: A story from WWII....the Bulge Reply with quote

I may have posted this here before...
so this is for all the new people.

My Father was in the Army from 1944 to 1945. He served with the
US 1st Div., 26th Inf Reg. and went through France, Belgium and Germany.
He was awarded a Bronze Star, Purple Heart, POW Medal and had 3 battle
stars. He was at the Bulge and crossed into Germany at Remagen before the
bridge collapsed.

Only recently, has he started to talk about the War.

Here is one story:

After securing a small town on the Belgium/German border, his squad and several
others were taking five. The general area consisted of 2 story row houses on both
sides of a wide street. It was mid afternoon and the guys were sitting on steps, laying
on the sidewalks, smoking, eating C rations and generally just bull shiting and relaxing.
Then it got real quiet...except for a faint rumbling in the distance. What they were hearing was a vehicle heading their way. As it got closer, they realized that it wasn't friendly and it was moving fast, really FAST! Thinking it was a tank, the soldiers were scrambling every which way.

As it turned out, it was an armored car with a turret on top. (From his description, it
was probably a SDKfz 232). Anyway, this car was moving full throttle down the street.
As it passed, there were G.I.'s hanging out windows, and in doorways firing M1's,
carbines, BAR's and pitching grenades at this thing but it still got away! My Father
said these guys were pissed! Ok, so the boys calm down and went back to what
they were doing.....less than five minutes later, they again hear noise in the distance.
As it got closer, they can see it's a German motorcycle with a side car and it's racing
toward them at full speed. They couldn't believe it! What again? Well, this time they
were ready and started blasting as it roared by. The German's didn't have a chance.

The driver was dead, shot though the head and body and was pinned under the overturned
cycle. The German in the side car was thrown about 20 ft and was groning and hurt bad.
Suddenly, a Woman runs out of a nearby house, (She must have been hiding in a cellar),
and try's to give first aid to the wounded German lying on the ground. Now these guys are REALLY pissed. (They thought the area was secure). A Sargent walks up to the wounded German and pulls out a .45 and shoots him in the head. Seeing this, the Woman freaks out and starts screaming and hearling insults at him in German. Then she starts to slap and kick him. While all this is going on, another soldier walks up to her and smashes her in the face with a rifle butt, busting her jaw and knocking out most of her teeth.
They leave her there, the middle of the street, bleeding like a stuck pig.

Seeing all this brutality taking place, a 1st Lt. is sitting on a step watching from across the street does nothing......

My Father really felt bad about what happend that day, but knew better not to get
involved. By the way, this was the same Sargent who later saved my
Father's life.
But that's another story.....
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Therion

Rep: 27.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:53 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice story. It restored my faith in American soldiers Smile .

Though it kinda sucks that they didn't rape that woman instead of smashing her face..


Wonderland - my mod for Armored Brigade

Killing for peace is like fucking for orgasm.
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Dauphin

Rep: 12.2
votes: 1


PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:39 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Therion wrote:
Nice story. It restored my faith in American soldiers Smile .

Though it kinda sucks that they didn't rape that woman instead of smashing her face..


Unless I made a terrible mistake in the understanding it is a rather sad and terrible story.
To me 'Geneva Convention' sounds like empty words in this dramatic situation.

Prisoners of war MUST be:

- Treated humanely with respect for their persons and their honour.
- Enabled to inform their next of kin and the Central Prisoners of War Agency (ICRC, the International Red Cross) of their capture.
- Allowed to correspond regularly with relatives and to receive relief parcels.
- Allowed to keep their clothes, feeding utensils and personal effects.
- Supplied with adequate food and clothing.
- Provided with quarters not inferior to those of their captor's troops.
- Given the medical care their state of health demands.
- Paid for any work they do.
- Repatriated if certified seriously ill or wounded, (but they must not resume active military duties afterwards) .
- Quickly released and repatriated when hostilities cease.

Protected civilians MUST be:
- Treated humanely at all times and protected against acts or threats of violence, insults and public curiosity.
- Entitled to respect for their honour, family rights, religious convictions and practices, and their manners and customs.
- Specially protected, for example in safety zones, if wounded, sick, old, children under 15, expectant mothers or mothers of children under 7.
- Enabled to exchange family news of a personal kind. - Helped to secure news of family members dispersed by the conflict
- Allowed to practise their religion with ministers of their own faith. Civilians who are interned have the same rights as prisoners of war. They may also ask to have their children interned with them, and wherever possible families should be housed together and provided with the facilities to continue normal family life. Wounded or sick civilians, civilian hospitals and staff, and hospital transport by land, sea or air must be specially respected and may be placed under protection of the red cross/crescent emblem.

Protected civilians must NOT be:
- Discriminated against because of race, religion or political opinion. - Forced to give information.
- Used to shield military operations or make an area immune from military operations.
- Punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. - Women must not be indecently assaulted, raped, or forced into prostitution.
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Tippi-Simo

Rep: 53.1
votes: 5


PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:56 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

How many times american/allied soldiers have been punished for war crimes or similar??
At least those guys can be proud of killing a civilian.

That Geneva Conventions are BS! Who obeys them?

I have read some books about russian demands after we got a treaty with them in 1944. They demanded every single axis civilians. They said that Geneva Conventions is not valid and they don´t have to obey it.


"Du talar dalig svenska, men du är bra i sängen"
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Searry

Rep: 3.2
votes: 1


PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:00 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

I allways knew yanks were worse than germans.
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Dauphin

Rep: 12.2
votes: 1


PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:20 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Tippi-Simo wrote:
How many times american/allied soldiers have been punished for war crimes or similar??
At least those guys can be proud of killing a civilian.

That Geneva Conventions are BS! Who obeys them?

I have read some books about russian demands after we got a treaty with them in 1944. They demanded every single axis civilians. They said that Geneva Conventions is not valid and they don´t have to obey it.


Geneva Conventions were not signed by the soviets. That's one of the reason of some german behaviour in Poland and USSR.

Soviets did too; Does Katyń sounds something to you ?

I wonder if you can say so when you have 'experienced' a war

Still the Bush régime refused to sign the treaty for war crimes. Maybe that there will be a change. I sincerely hope that it will, still chances are close to zero
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thorbeer

Rep: 6.6


PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Searry wrote:
I allways knew yanks were worse than germans.

No, I dont think that the Yanks awas worse than the German. BUT warcrimes did take place on both(all) sides. War is hell, then and now.
Maybe the Geneva convention is a string of hope to hold on too. Better to have it and hope for mercy than accept inhuman behaviour.
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Therion

Rep: 27.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:43 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Dauphin wrote:
Unless I made a terrible mistake in the understanding it is a rather sad and terrible story.
To me 'Geneva Convention' sounds like empty words in this dramatic situation.

Prisoners of war MUST be:

- Treated humanely with respect for their persons and their honour.
- Enabled to inform their next of kin and the Central Prisoners of War Agency (ICRC, the International Red Cross) of their capture.
- Allowed to correspond regularly with relatives and to receive relief parcels.
- Allowed to keep their clothes, feeding utensils and personal effects.
- Supplied with adequate food and clothing.
- Provided with quarters not inferior to those of their captor's troops.
- Given the medical care their state of health demands.
- Paid for any work they do.
- Repatriated if certified seriously ill or wounded, (but they must not resume active military duties afterwards) .
- Quickly released and repatriated when hostilities cease.

Protected civilians MUST be:
- Treated humanely at all times and protected against acts or threats of violence, insults and public curiosity.
- Entitled to respect for their honour, family rights, religious convictions and practices, and their manners and customs.
- Specially protected, for example in safety zones, if wounded, sick, old, children under 15, expectant mothers or mothers of children under 7.
- Enabled to exchange family news of a personal kind. - Helped to secure news of family members dispersed by the conflict
- Allowed to practise their religion with ministers of their own faith. Civilians who are interned have the same rights as prisoners of war. They may also ask to have their children interned with them, and wherever possible families should be housed together and provided with the facilities to continue normal family life. Wounded or sick civilians, civilian hospitals and staff, and hospital transport by land, sea or air must be specially respected and may be placed under protection of the red cross/crescent emblem.

Protected civilians must NOT be:
- Discriminated against because of race, religion or political opinion. - Forced to give information.
- Used to shield military operations or make an area immune from military operations.
- Punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. - Women must not be indecently assaulted, raped, or forced into prostitution.

Too bad that the "Geneva Convention" doesn't protect men on battlefields from being mass-murdered in gruesome ways.

thorbeer wrote:
inhuman behaviour.

Actually, the described behaviour was very human. Humans are one of the few types of animals that wage wars among themselves and commit genocide - IIRC one of the others were chimpanzees which are our closest relatives.


Wonderland - my mod for Armored Brigade

Killing for peace is like fucking for orgasm.


Last edited by Therion on Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dauphin

Rep: 12.2
votes: 1


PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:51 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

That's what people usually call diplomacy. Something that rules relations between countries, well most of the time
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Therion

Rep: 27.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:07 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I find the instrumental use of killing random men distasteful.

Killing the healthiest, potentially most productive members of society for some petty goal and then pretending that it's "civilised"...


Wonderland - my mod for Armored Brigade

Killing for peace is like fucking for orgasm.
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Ernie_M

Rep: 37.4


PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:50 am Post subject: War is HELL Reply with quote

Yes guys, it was horrific and really happened.
To get the REAL impact of this event, you'd
have to hear my Father tell the story!
THIS incident happened after the "Bulge" in a
in a small town (unknown) as the First Div. was
moving into Germany.....

As for the brutality that some of you are against,
you must understand that many of these Men
were vets and seen alot of acton...also, this
incident happened after Malamady. Many
G.I.'s were really pissed off at the Germans

This outfit that my Father was in fought at the
Northern shoulder of the "Bulge" against the
SS Divisions that were there...So they were not
in the mood for playing games with the enemy...

As for the Sgt. who shot the German....Well
I'll tell you more about him in another post.
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Dauphin

Rep: 12.2
votes: 1


PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:31 am Post subject: Reply with quote

If you tolerate and apologize this then you have to apologize Castelculier, Saint-Pierre-de-Clairac, Tulle, Oradour sur Glane, Buchères, Maillé, Robert-Espagne, Beurey-sur-Saulx, Couvonges, Mognéville, Baugnez just to name some places from June 1944 till december 1944.

If I extrapolate your saying, then I believe that Abou Ghraib was just fair because of all the horror some US troops have endured.
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Tippi-Simo

Rep: 53.1
votes: 5


PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:14 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
thorbeer wrote:
inhuman behaviour.


Quote:
Actually, the described behaviour was very human. Humans are one of the few types of animals that wage wars among themselves and commit genocide - IIRC one of the others were chimpanzees which are our closest relatives.

Well said.

Quote:
Geneva Conventions were not signed by the soviets. That's one of the reason of some german behaviour in Poland and USSR.

Soviets did too; Does Katyń sounds something to you ?

Yeah. So whats the point of having these conventions? No one get punished. Only the defeated side.


"Du talar dalig svenska, men du är bra i sängen"
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dgfred

Rep: 63.1


PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I did read/hear somewhere that 'War is Hell' and these stories are the same for all countries and all sides in war. Doesn't make it right, but it is fact.


Sports Freak/ CC Commander/ Panzerblitz Commander
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CSO_Talorgan

Rep: 51.9
votes: 1


PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:54 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Tippi-Simo wrote:
They demanded every single axis civilians.


... and what was your reaction?
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