Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:14 am Post subject: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod
After playing through half of the TLD GC ... I am of the opinion that some changes would make battles more realistic and balanced.
Therefore, I'm thinking of modding some parts of TLD to accomplish this.
I'll list some of the areas that are considered for change, and possible solutions.
1) Medium Mortars play too large a roll concerning infantry movement and casualties, especially if changes to the Active Roster are allowed ... and several of these units are chosen. I also think it best to have 3 man Recon Teams.
Both of these could be changed by: replacing all medium Mortars with Recon Teams.
I think there is already Recons Teams in the Teams file ... so it may be possible to simply exchange them. Is it possible to assign the Recon Teams to the BG's using a number value instead of the Mortar number?
Availability of Recon Teams would remain the same as the replaced Med. Mortars.
2) MMG and HMG changed to 3 man Teams ... in order to get better Line of Sight for gunner.
3) 30 mins battles is too long for beach maps, and 15 mins is short for inland ones. Therefore a 20 min battle time will be set for battles.
4) Increase number of Naval barrages available ... and also try and have them available for some maps that are on the inland side (and next to) beach maps.
5) Increase number of Mortar barrages available ... compensating for the lack of Medium Mortars. There will probably be one Mortar barrage available to each side for most battles.
6) Include OnGroundFX sound mod
These changes, although not many, may be all that is needed to get more realistic and better balanced game play.
Anyone wanting to help with this mod ... please send me a PM
Thanks
David
Last edited by davidssfx on Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod
Yes get rid of medium mortars, I just did a quick test and cut&paste ab-81 mortars and ab-recon and switched places and it worked, tried to only change the class value but it didn't work, seems the game counts line by line or something. They have the availability of mortars though, that could be from 1 through 4 for each turn with a 2.5 average. To change availability one would have to modify the FPools.txt file for all turns and all difficulties.
Other changes could be:
-Change the description of BAR team from 'MG team' to Medium Infantry or something.
-Give molotovs to Osttruppen and other german infantry
-Change the .30 cal 1919A4 from the AB-MG team to the 1919A6. Leave the .30 cal MMG team as it is.
-Change the .30 cal 1919A4 from the AB-MG team to the 1919A6. Leave the .30 cal MMG team as it is.
Don't want to be a wiseacre, but the M1919A6 wasn't issued to Airborne units until after the Normandy campaign.
And davidssfx. Isn't this a good way to start your modding-carrier? It's easy to work with tLD if you got Excel. If I had more time on my hands I could help you, but I'm busting my balls at work right now, can hardly get enough time and brain-functions for my own little project.
"When the tough gets going, I run to live to run another day..."
Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:57 pm Post subject: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod
Really? I thought they were. Well they have a lot of .30 cals as it is right now, is this historical? I mean they have this MG teams that I think were done to counter the Grenadier MG teams but I don't know if the allies had such a thing like MG squads, I decided to change the A4 with the A6 because they seem more appropriate. I know the paratroopers where not issued the BAR or it was in very little numbers and the .30 cal is too heavy and cumbersome to be used as a an assault weapon besides they have too many, but having just rifle teams on AB BG seems so boring so I guess MG teams need to stay for the sake of gameplay
Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:10 am Post subject: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod
@ Pzt_Kanov
The AB had tons of the M1919A4 .30cal MG, one in every 12-men squad (instead of the BAR as you mention,) two additional unallocated in every Platoon and eight in the light machine gun platoon of the battalion; -Giving a full Battalion 44 of these beasts!!
And a final note: The US rifle-squad (Both regular army and AB) were 12 men strong, divided into a five men 'gun-group' (MG or BAR) for fire and a seven men 'rifle-group' for movement and assault. (The 'rifle-group' could then be further split into 5+2 for a two men scout or Bazooka team...)
"When the tough gets going, I run to live to run another day..."
Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:28 am Post subject: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod
Weren't BARs dropped in cannisters on D-Day? I read also that the PIR troops obtained/swapped BARs from GIR troops...so maybe having a limited number of AB (PIR) LMG squads with the BAR showing up on day 3-4 should be fun.
Recon teams should be available for the AB...no more using Zook teams for scouts
Weren't BARs dropped in cannisters on D-Day? I read also that the PIR troops obtained/swapped BARs from GIR troops...so maybe having a limited number of AB (PIR) LMG squads with the BAR showing up on day 3-4 should be fun.
Hey Squadleader, haven't seen you in a while.
Don't know about cannisters, but you're right about the 'organisation' of BARs from the glider troops (82nd Airborne, of coarse.) Was searching the net about BARs in the airborne divisions a month or two ago (didn't save the bookmarks for the pages,) but it seems like they received BARs (with a system to jump safely with them as well) for the Rhine-crossing, with the exception of at least one soldier in the 82nd who cut the stock of a BAR and jumped with it during D-day.
Recon teams should be available for the AB...no more using Zook teams for scouts
Nope, no more 'zooka-scouts'!! The two-men teams of the 'rifle-group' should be used in one of the following roles:
A) Scouts, two men with M1 Garand who walks, talks and most likely getting killed by the Jerrys they find. No solo-missions for the scouts, keep them close, keep them safe...
B) Bazooka team, there were a unallocated Bazooka in every Platoon, as well as one in the Company (with another three of them in the LMG Platoon as well as the Mortar Platoon of the Battalion) Giving a complete Battalion as many as 18 Zooka-teams.
C) LMG team, two unallocated M1919A4 in every Platoon.
"When the tough gets going, I run to live to run another day..."
Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:31 am Post subject: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod
Nice info Woulf, you have convinced me of changing back the A4 .30 cal for the MG teams.
I also found this site which you have probably already seen, it is about a debriefing of the 82nd in Normandy. They said that some soldiers did jump with BARs but not many of them and the Generals would have liked at least 2 per stick.
"The weapons section we had contained machine guns in the squad, we jumped with some BAR'S, but would like to replace the machine guns with BAR'S, because looking for the machine guns holds us back at first."
Yes get rid of medium mortars, I just did a quick test and cut&paste ab-81 mortars and ab-recon and switched places and it worked, tried to only change the class value but it didn't work, seems the game counts line by line or something. They have the availability of mortars though, that could be from 1 through 4 for each turn with a 2.5 average. To change availability one would have to modify the FPools.txt file for all turns and all difficulties.
Other changes could be:
-Change the description of BAR team from 'MG team' to Medium Infantry or something.
-Give molotovs to Osttruppen and other german infantry
-Change the .30 cal 1919A4 from the AB-MG team to the 1919A6. Leave the .30 cal MMG team as it is.
Hi Pzt_Kanov,
Thanks for checking that out, and getting the Recon Team as replacements for Med. Mortar.
And for the other info.
-Change the .30 cal 1919A4 from the AB-MG team to the 1919A6. Leave the .30 cal MMG team as it is.
Don't want to be a wiseacre, but the M1919A6 wasn't issued to Airborne units until after the Normandy campaign.
And davidssfx. Isn't this a good way to start your modding-carrier? It's easy to work with tLD if you got Excel. If I had more time on my hands I could help you, but I'm busting my balls at work right now, can hardly get enough time and brain-functions for my own little project.
Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 5:07 am Post subject: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod
As for the (MG) Teams.
This class of Team is putting an unrealistic amount of MG fire power into play.
I would prefer any Team ending in (MG) to have its MG replaced with a sub machine gun ... like a Thompson or MP40.
There are many other Teams with MG42, BAR, Bren, etc.
Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 5:57 am Post subject: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod
No probs mates, always glad to help. 8)
And Pzt_Kanov, I've got that page, but haven't got around to read the debriefings. Seems to be a lot of info in them as well, thx for pointing that out.
Quote:
As for the (MG) Teams.
This class of Team is putting an unrealistic amount of MG fire power into play.
I would prefer any Team ending in (MG) to have its MG replaced with a sub machine gun ... like a Thompson or MP40.
There are many other Teams with MG42, BAR, Bren, etc.
The eternal discussion of mg's
My humble opinion is that there's a realistic amount of mg's in the game, but it's a question of taste. You should at least keep the heavy mg's, since they weren't squad level weapons but rather a support weapon. And the US Airborne had no HMG, so they should keep their M1919A4s (The M2HB were in fact an AA-MG...) And looking at the Commonwealth doctrine a 10-men squad had a Bren, either in the rifle section (7 men, with a 3 men recce group) or as an individual 3 men Bren group with a 7 men rifle section. Hence you should keep the small Bren group for realism.
If you don't want the MG-teams, why not remove them from the BG's instead of creating some type of SMG teams?
Good luck and cheers
"When the tough gets going, I run to live to run another day..."
And Pzt_Kanov, I've got that page, but haven't got around to read the debriefings. Seems to be a lot of info in them as well, thx for pointing that out.
Quote:
As for the (MG) Teams.
This class of Team is putting an unrealistic amount of MG fire power into play.
I would prefer any Team ending in (MG) to have its MG replaced with a sub machine gun ... like a Thompson or MP40.
There are many other Teams with MG42, BAR, Bren, etc.
The eternal discussion of mg's
My humble opinion is that there's a realistic amount of mg's in the game, but it's a question of taste. You should at least keep the heavy mg's, since they weren't squad level weapons but rather a support weapon. And the US Airborne had no HMG, so they should keep their M1919A4s (The M2HB were in fact an AA-MG...) And looking at the Commonwealth doctrine a 10-men squad had a Bren, either in the rifle section (7 men, with a 3 men recce group) or as an individual 3 men Bren group with a 7 men rifle section. Hence you should keep the small Bren group for realism.
If you don't want the MG-teams, why not remove them from the BG's instead of creating some type of SMG teams?
Good luck and cheers
I meant just the Teams as listed in the Force Pool (in game) that have MG in brackets ... like this: Grenadiere (MG).
I think this only relates to German Teams ... since the Airborne units are listed as MG Teams.
My point was ... some of these German BG's have two MG42 Teams, and two Grenadiere (MG) Teams.
This puts four MG42's on a single CC map. Then if changes to the Active Roster are allowed .... then there will probably be two more.
Either way it's just too much fire power for the amount of soldiers available.
By editing out the MG42's from the teams ending with "(MG)" ... you will still have a unique and powerful unit left, with: two MP40's and two K98 rifles.
I can see two MG42 Teams supporting, but four or more is unrealistic ... imo. And since this mod does away with the 81mm mortar ... the Allied infantry are going to have to take out the ATG's. No more quick one or two mortar rounds finishing off an ATG.
sorry for the confusion ... I did mention a Thompson, but was just tired when writing.
The U.S. Airborne does need "MG Teams" since they have no BAR's.
Also, from what I can see in the game ... the U.S. Airborne doesn't have BAR's , which I think is OK.
Thanks for your help.
btw, if it sounds like I don't know what I'm talking about ... I don't mind being corrected.
My point was ... some of these German BG's have two MG42 Teams, and two Grenadiere (MG) Teams.
This puts four MG42's on a single CC map. Then if changes to the Active Roster are allowed .... then there will probably be two more.
Either way it's just too much fire power for the amount of soldiers available.
By editing out the MG42's from the teams ending with "(MG)" ... you will still have a unique and powerful unit left, with: two MP40's and two K98 rifles.
I can see two MG42 Teams supporting, but four or more is unrealistic ... imo. And since this mod does away with the 81mm mortar ... the Allied infantry are going to have to take out the ATG's. No more quick one or two mortar rounds finishing off an ATG.
I haven't touched CCTLD for a few months now...but those German infantry with MGs...aren't these squads assigned LMGs with limited ammo and not suitable for prolonged sustained fire like HMGs and dedicated LMG teams?
IMHO they're more suitable for assault roles...or mobile defense.
Quote:
The U.S. Airborne does need "MG Teams" since they have no BAR's.
Also, from what I can see in the game ... the U.S. Airborne doesn't have BAR's , which I think is OK.
US AB PIR BGs don't have BARs...but US AB GIR BGs do have BAR teams.
Last edited by squadleader_id on Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:21 am; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:15 am Post subject: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod
My bad David
Thought you meant the MG teams (as in M1919A4 .30 cal MG), but I'm tired as well.
But you have to choose between realism and game-play in this case, because the high number of German MG's isn't unrealistic. It's called 'Dual Base of fire', giving each infantry squad two machine guns (or BAR's in the US infantry squad). You can read more about it (and other aspects of small unit tactics) here:
But you don't have to follow this, everyone doesn't have to be a 'realism-freak' like me! Your idea about SMG's instead (or why not StG44, to compromise between a MG and a SMG) might just as well. The goal is a good game, isn't it?
And don't think of my posts as 'corrections', I'm just enjoying to share my lifelong interest in WW II and unit organisation with others. Since I've got Gremlins in my h2h gaming (and I can't enjoy vs. AI games any more) I might as well share the fruits of hours of research? CC gets to you, and if you can't do one thing, then you have to concentrate on another aspect of the game.
"When the tough gets going, I run to live to run another day..."
Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 3:33 pm Post subject: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod
quoted by squadleader_id
"I haven't touched CCTLD for a few months now...but those German infantry with MGs...aren't these squads assigned LMGs with limited ammo and not suitable for prolonged sustained fire like HMGs and dedicated LMG teams?
IMHO they're more suitable for assault roles...or mobile defense."
Thanks squadleader_id ... I didn't realize they had less ammo
quoted by squadleader_id
"US AB PIR BGs don't have BARs...but US AB GIR BGs do have BAR teams."
If that is the way TLD has it now ... then I don't think there needs to be any changes regarding BAR Teams in U.S. Airborne BG's.
Even if some 82nd units had BAR's ... it sounds like it was more unique than the norm.
Thought you meant the MG teams (as in M1919A4 .30 cal MG), but I'm tired as well.
But you have to choose between realism and game-play in this case, because the high number of German MG's isn't unrealistic. It's called 'Dual Base of fire', giving each infantry squad two machine guns (or BAR's in the US infantry squad). You can read more about it (and other aspects of small unit tactics) here:
But you don't have to follow this, everyone doesn't have to be a 'realism-freak' like me! Your idea about SMG's instead (or why not StG44, to compromise between a MG and a SMG) might just as well. The goal is a good game, isn't it?
And don't think of my posts as 'corrections', I'm just enjoying to share my lifelong interest in WW II and unit organisation with others. Since I've got Gremlins in my h2h gaming (and I can't enjoy vs. AI games any more) I might as well share the fruits of hours of research? CC gets to you, and if you can't do one thing, then you have to concentrate on another aspect of the game.
Thanks for the link Woulf ... very interesting.
Maybe the best way to proceed is to keep it simple. Get the medium mortars out, and the scouts in ... then test.
I would like to be able to use some of the tactics mentioned in that link, but with the medium mortars ... it seems there isn't any way to move without using the crawl command ... unless you are willing to take big losses.
Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod
I just checked and noticed that the following teams use the leMG42 which in the game is the 'assault' version of the MG42 with the ammo drums, these are the ones that have limited ammo at 50 rounds per clip with 5 clips and assault fire (fire on the move), they are designated as personal weapons so no need to have an assistant, also means that when the guy dies, no other member of the squad gets the weapon:
-PzAufklärer(MG) - Regular and SS
-PzGrenadiere(gp)
The others that are designated with an (MG) have the regular belt fed MG42.
I don't know how I feel about this, I guess in one hand the germans have too many MG's but on the other hand they probably had that many historically and also gives them an advantage against infantry where allies have an advantage in everything else.
Another related but different issue, how would you guys feel if the BAR was designated as a personal weapon? i.e. only one man fires and controls it, no need for an assistant but when the BAR guy dies the gun is lost, until it is scavenged and then maybe.
I just checked and noticed that the following teams use the leMG42 which in the game is the 'assault' version of the MG42 with the ammo drums, these are the ones that have limited ammo at 50 rounds per clip with 5 clips and assault fire (fire on the move), they are designated as personal weapons so no need to have an assistant, also means that when the guy dies, no other member of the squad gets the weapon:
-PzAufklärer(MG) - Regular and SS
-PzGrenadiere(gp)
The others that are designated with an (MG) have the regular belt fed MG42.
I don't know how I feel about this, I guess in one hand the germans have too many MG's but on the other hand they probably had that many historically and also gives them an advantage against infantry where allies have an advantage in everything else.
Another related but different issue, how would you guys feel if the BAR was designated as a personal weapon? i.e. only one man fires and controls it, no need for an assistant but when the BAR guy dies the gun is lost, until it is scavenged and then maybe.
Thanks for checking into the leMG42
I didn't realize it can fire on the move and that no assistant is required.
I'm not sure about the BAR using the same kind of values, but I guess in kind of depends on how other LMG's are designated ... and how others feel about it.
Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod
Yes, it has been this way since CC3, cc2 had the assault MG but it wasn't used until some guys at TH discovered it in the data and made the unofficial 3.X patches.
Regarding the BAR I see it like an auto-rifle not really a MG and also uses magazines instead of ammo boxes so its lighter and if you set it as personal weapon you free a guy from the squad to use his rifle, though the carrier becomes very slow unless you modify the weight of the weapon and clips. Being crewed serves the purpose of having the BAR 'bounce' to another soldier when the original gunner is killed though.
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It's called 'Dual Base of fire', giving each infantry squad two machine guns (or BAR's in the US infantry squad). You can read more about it (and other aspects of small unit tactics) here:
